>> NOW, THERE MAY BE GROWING DIVISIONS WITHIN TRUMP'S MAGA BASE, BUT THE REJECTION OF FEMINISM APPEARS TO BE A UNIFYING FORCE FOR RIGHT-WING MALES.

WITH THE HELP OF SOCIAL MEDIA, MISOGYNISTIC VIEWS ARE BEING INCREASINGLY NORMALIZED.

THE ATLANTIC STAFF WRITER IT'S THE COVER OF HER NEW PIECE.

SHE JOINS HAR VAE VENE VAUSEN.

>> THANKS FOR JOINING US.

YOU WROTE A RECENT PIECE IN THE ATLANTIC WHERE YOU DESCRIBE THIS CALLED CALLED MASCULINISM.

>> PEOPLE MAY HAVE HEARD ABOUT THE MANOSPHERE WHO MIGHT TALK ABOUT WHETHER IT'S BOOSTING YOUR TESTOSTERONE OR MAKING YOURSELF MORE ATTRACTIVE, WORKING OUT, WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE.

AND I THINK THIS IS ESSENTIALLY THE POLITICAL WING OF THAT, ESSENTIALLY.

MASCULINISM IS AN ANTIDOTE OR BACKLASH TO FEMINISM SAYING THAT MEN HAVE BEEN SHAMED FOR BEING MEN.

WOMEN HAVE FEMINIZED SOCIETY IN WAYS THE MASCULINESTS CONTEST.

ONE OF THE BIG EXAMPLES OF THAT IS THEY THINK THAT EMPATHY IS NOW TOO DOMINANT IN POLITICS.

THAT WOMEN ARE TOO EMPATHETIC AND TOO MANY FEMALE POLITICIANS THEY FEEL SORRY FOR ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS OR VIOLENT CRIMINALS, AND SO BORDERS AREN'T BEING FORCED, LAWS AREN'T BEING ENFORCED.

SO THEY HAVE THIS REALLY TOP TO BOTTOM CRITIQUE OF SOCIETY AND EVERYTHING THAT'S HAPPENED, WELL, IN THE LAST 100 YEARS OR MORE.

AT THE VERY EXTREME YOU WANT MEN WHO WANT WOMEN TO BE LEGALLY PAID LESS THAN MEN, AND SOME WHO DON'T WANT WOMEN TO VOTE IN EXTREME CASES.

>> YOU START BY TALKING ABOUT SOMEONE NAMED DOUGLAS WILSON WHO HAS A LOT OF POLICY DESCRIPTION, AND HAS ALSO THE EAR OF THE DEFENSE SECRETARY OR SECRETARY OF WAR PETE HEGSETH.

YOU WRITE THAT WILSON BELIEVES THAT WOMEN SHOULD, QUOTE, NOT ORDINARILY HOLD POLITICAL OFFICE AND SHOULD NEVER SERVE IN COMBAT ROLES IN THE MILITARY.

HUSBANDS SHOULD HAVE DOMINION OVER MISBEHAVING WIVES, WEIGHT, SPENDING HABITS, AND CHOICE OF TELEVISION PROGRAMS.

I MEAN, HE'S PART OF THIS MOVEMENT, AND YOU WRITE HE'S THE CO-FOUNDER OF THE COMMUNION OF REFORM CHURCHES BASED IN SKOW, IDAHO.

TELL ME HOAR ABOUT HIM.

>> HE IS A FASCINATING FIGURE.

HE'S BEEN BLOGGING OVER 20 YEARS NOW, AND HE'S WRITTEN AN EXTRAORDINARY NUMBER OF SELF-PUBLISHED BOOKS.

HE'S FOUND A LITTLE EMPIRE IN IDAHO.

SO HE HAS A PUBLISHING IMPRINT SEVERAL MEMBERS OF HIS FAMILY WORKS FOR, HAS STREAMING DOCUMENTARIES, AND HAS SEVERAL CHURCHES AROUND THE U. S. HE'S BEEN SAYING THE SAME THINGS FOR A REALLY LONG TIME, BUT HE FEELS HIS MOMENT HAS COME TO SOME EXTENT.

HE FEELS THERE IS NOW AN OPENNESS TO THE THINGS HE'S SAYING.

I, YEAH THAT LINK TO HEGSETH IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

SO DOUG WILSON WENT INTO THE PENTAGON IN FEBRUARY, LED A PRAYER SERVICE AND TOLD EVERYBODY THERE TO BE UNEMBARRASSED, UNAPOLOGETIC CHRISTIANS.

THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT THAT THERE'S NOT ALL FLAVORS OF CHRIS CHUNTY.

HE'S A CALVINIST, A PROTESTANT, AND HE WOULD LIKE AMERICA TO BE A THEOCRACY, AND WOULDN'T LIKE EXPRESSIONS OF CATHOLICISM IN THE PUBLIC SQUARE.

SO HE'S GOT A VERY PARTICULAR VISION OF WHAT HE THINKS AMERICA SHOULD LOOK LIKE, AND IT IS A VERY NARROW ONE, VERY FEW PEOPLE NEED TO APPLY, REALLY.

>> THESE VOICES LIKE MR.

WILSON WOULD HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED FRINGE, AND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THEY ARE FAR MORE MAIN STREAMED PERHAPS BECAUSE OF THEIR --THE PEOPLE WHO SUBSCRIBE TO THEM LIKE PETE HEGSETH.

>> AND ALSO BECAUSE OF THE REACH OF THE INTERNET.

FOR BETTER OR WORSE WE HAVE MOVED INTO A MUCH MORE FREE-FOR- ALL MEDIA ENVIRONMENT.

YOU KNOW, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN A TIME WHEN PEOPLE LIKE DOUG WILSON WOULD HAVE BEEN KIND OF TREATED LIKE A CURIOSITY.

AND WHAT ACTUALLY HAS HAPPENED IS HE'S BEEN ABLE TO BUILD HIS OWN APPARATUS, RIGHT THERE'S NO POINT YOU OR ME, NO PLATFORMING -- DOUGLAS WILSON HAS BUILT HIS OWN PLATFORM AND IT'S POPULAR AND SUCCESSFUL.

YOU COULD SAY THE SAME THING ABOUT THE MANOSPHERE INFLUENCERS.

NICK FUENTES, WHO I MENTIONED IN THE ARTICLE, HE HAS BEEN BANNED FROM A WHOLE LOT OF SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS BUT NOT ALL OF THEM.

AND ALSO HE HAS A ARMY OF FANS WHO PICK UP THINGS HE SAYS AND DISTRIBUTE THEM.

THAT WAS ALSO SOMETHING THAT WORKED VERY WELL FOR ANDREW TATE.

SO THERE HAS BEEN THIS DEMOCRATIZING OF THE DISCOURSE, WHICH HAS BEEN WONDERFUL IN LOTS OF WAYS AND GIVEN PEOPLE A CHANCE TO SPEAK, BUT IT WOULD ONCE HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED PRETTY EXTREME TO PUT IN FRONT OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.

>> HOW IS THAT OVERLAP?

RIGHT?

YOU HAVE ON THE ONE HAND YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SOMEBODY WHO HAS RELIGIOUS MOTIVATIONS, AND THEN HOW DOES THAT SLIDE OVER INTO KIND OF POLITICAL ACTION AND ACTIVITY WHEN IT COMES TO THIS YOUNGER GENERATION OF MEN WHO MIGHT BE LISTENING TO HIM, BUT THEY MIGHT ALSO BE YOUTUBE INFLUENCERS THAT ARE SELLING KIND OF HOW TO LOOK BETTER AND HOW TO TAKE THE RIGHT VITAMINS OR WHATEVER IT IS?

>> RIGHT.

AND ALL OF IT'S WRAPPED TOGETHER WITH KIND OF ANTEELITIST MESSAGE, RIGHT?

SO THEY ARE DOING THIS TO YOU, THEY ARE ARE KEEPING FROM, YOU KNOW, EXPRESSING YOUR MAS LN RESPONSIBILITIES.

SO THERE IS A KIND OF ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT TONE THAT GOES ALL THE WAY THROUGH IT.

THE OTHER THING I FOUND WHEN I WAS RESEARCHING THIS WAS THAT THIS IS ONE OF THE FEW THINGS THAT REALLY BINDS THE ENTIRETY OF THE NEW RIGHT, THE ONLINE RIGHT TOGETHER.

THAT REALLY HADN'T OCCURRED TO ME BEFORE.

IF WE LOOK AT THE MAGA MOVEMENT THROUGH THERE ARE PRETTY DEEP SPLITS ON WHETHER THE TECH COMPANIES SHOULD BE BETTER REGULATED, WHETHER OR NOT ISRAEL SHOULD BE AS A STAUNCH ALLY OF THE U. S. OR TREATED AT MORE ARMS WAY, PROTECTIONS VERSUS TARIFFS.

THERE ARE MORE IDEOLOGICAL DIVIDES IN THAT MOVEMENT.

BUT THE ONE THING EVERYBODY CAN AGREE ON IS THERE'S A FEW TOO BOSSY WOMEN IN THE PLACE TELLING EVERYBODY WHAT TO DO, AND WOULDN'T EVERYONE BE HAPFER YR IF WE REVERT TO A 1950s.

>> BRINGING TOGETHER AN UNLIKELY CONSTELLATION OF PASTORS, POSTERS, SENATORS, PREACHERS, INFLUENCERS, POD CASTERS, AND FAN BOYS.

WAS THERE ANY KIND OF TRIGGERING EVENT?

DO THEY SEE THE SUCCESS AS PRESIDENT TRUMP AS A LICENSE?

>> I THINK TRUMP IS DEFINITELY A BIG PART OF IT.

YOU KNOW, HE HAS ALWAYS BEEN SOMEONE WHO'S TRADED ON HIS EDGINESS AND HIS WILLING TO TAKE ON WHATEVER YOU MIGHT CALL IT, POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.

HE ALSO, YOU KNOW, HAS RUN AGAINST AND BEATEN TWO FEMALE OPPONENTS WHO ARE PRESENTED IN THIS WAY THE THAT THE MANOSPHERE HATES WHICH IS THIS MANAGERIAL BUREAUCRATIC CODDLING, LIKE WOMEN ARE KIND OF THE WORLD'S HR MANAGERS, THEIR LIKE THE WORLD'S NANNIES OR MUMS TELLING YOU WHAT TO DO.

YOU CAN'T SEE A FIGURE LIKE THIS WITHOUT TRUMP.

AND ALSO IN THIS COMMUNITY POPULAR WITH MEN IS BEING EDGY IS YOUR PASSPORT, YOUR CREDIBILITY KIND OF WAIVER TO GET YOU INTO THAT SPACE, THAT YOU'RE COOL, YOU'RE CHILL.

YOU DON'T MIND IF PEOPLE USE RACIST WORDS OR SEXIST WORDS.

YOU'RE NOT KIND OF SCOLD --ALL THESE IDEAS ABOUT THE LEFT --RICHARD WHO USED TO WIFE AS A WHITE NATIONALIST YOU SHOW OTHER PEOPLE YOU ARE BASE, YOU'RE COOL WITH THIS KIND OF STUFF.

AND YOU DO THAT BY SAYING RACIST OR SEXIST, LIKE ACTUALLY WOMEN SHOULDN'T VOTE.

AND IT'S SLIGHTLY EDGY, DELIBERATELY PROVOCATIVE, BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE AROUND THIS MOVEMENT IF THEY WERE ALLOWED TO CONSTITUTE AMERICA'S POLITICAL LANDSCAPE, THAT IS WHAT THEY THINK SHOULD HAPPEN.

>> I COULD SEE SOMEONE FROM THE WHITE HOUSE SPOKE PERSON'S OFFICE SAYING, HEY, LOOK, PRESIDENT TRUMP KEEPS HIS ARM'S LENGTH FROM THIS.

WE'VE GOT THE SECRETARY OF EDUCATION, LINDA McMANN.

WE'VE GOT THE DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE, TULSI GABBARD.

WE HAVE CABINET WOMEN WHO ARE HIGH RANKING OFFICIALS, SO WE'RE NOT SCULINESTS, WE'RE NOT TRYING TO COURT THAT VOTE.

>> I'M NOT GOING TO MAKE THE CLAIM TRUMP'S A FEMINIST.

THAT'S NOT A CLAIM HE'D MAKE HIMSELF.

HE'S CLEAR HAW NOT ILL AT EASE WITH WOMEN IN POSITIONS OF AUTHORITY.

ALTHOUGH I THINK THE ONLY PERSON WHO REALLY LIKES BEING IN A POSITION OF AUTHORITY IS HIMSELF, SO IT'S ALL SLIGHTLY RELATIVE.

THERE ARE INTERESTING ISSUES SOME PEOPLE ARE MORE EXTREME THAN DONALD TRUMP.

THAT'S SOMETHING I THINK GETS UNDERRATED.

HE KEPT OFF FROM THE REPUBLICAN PLATFORM IN 2024 IN A FEDERAL NATIONWIDE ABORTION BAN, WHICH THE PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT HAS WANTED FOR A REALLY LONG TIME.

AND DONALD TRUMP HAD A SENSE THAT WAS TOO FAR.

THAT WOULD ACTUALLY BE THE KIND OF THING --IF YOU LOOK AT WHERE PEOPLE VOTE, YEAH, PEOPLE GENUINELY HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT ABORTION, BUT LOTS OF AMERICANS DO SUPPORT IT IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES.

SO DONALD TRUMP CORRECTLY IDENTIFIED THAT WAS A STEP TOO FAR.

AND THERE'S A SIMILAR THING I THINK THAT HAPPENS WITH, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THESE MASCULINEST IDEAS.

AT THE SAME TIME HE CAN BE VERY SEXIST, YOU KNOW.

HE TOLD A FEMALE REPORTER, QUIET, PIGGY.

THIS VERY BELITTLING SEXIST PUT DOWN I ACTUALLY FOUND SHOCKING.

I CAN'T REALLY IMAGINE GEORGE W. BUSH OR RECENT REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTS DOING SUCH A THING.

>> IT'S INTERESTING RIGHT NOW WE ALSO SEEM TO BE IN A PLACE WHERE THERE ARE A LOT OF WOMEN WHO ARE EMBRACING THE TRADITIONAL WIFE OR TRIED PHILOSOPHY THAT ALIGNS WELL WITH THE MASCULINESTS, THAT THE WOMEN ARE OPTING THIS, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN THEY'RE NOT BEING OPPRESSED INTO IT, THEY'RE CHOOSING IT.

>> YEAH, AND I THINK THAT'S VERY DIFFERENT.

IF ANY COUPLE IN AMERICA ACTUALLY GOES WE'D LIKE A TRADITIONAL SPLIT OF BREADWINNER AND HOMEMAKER AND MAYBE WE'RE GOING TO MAKE SOME ECONOMIC SACRIFICES TO DO IT, GOD BLESS THEM.

I'M ALL FOR IT.

THE DIFFERENCE IS NOT MAKING THAT CHOICE AND HAVING IT FORCED ON YOU.

IN A SENSE I THINK BOTH OF THEM ARE ENTREPRENEUR-LED BY PEOPLE WHO ARE PLAYING CHARACTERS ON SOCIAL MEDIA THAT MAY NOT BE REFLECTED IN THEIR EVERYDAY LIVES THEMSELVES.

YOU KNOW, YOU SEE LOTS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE PREACHING THINGS AND LIVING A LIFESTYLE FOR THE BENEFIT OF, YOU KNOW, THE GRAM.

AND A LOT OF THINGS HAPPEN WITH TRIAD WIVES.

MOST OF THEM ARE ESSENTIALLY SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS.

THEIR CONTENT IS THEIR PRODUCT.

THEIR LIFESTYLE IS THEIR PRODUCT, SO THEY'RE JUST AS MUCH OF A FEMALE CEO.

THEY'RE PARTICIPATING IN THAT KIND OF CAPITALISTIC ECONOMY.

>> WE'VE HAD MULTIPLE CONVERSATIONS WITH PEOPLE ON THIS PROGRAM THAT SAY, LOOK, THERE IS A PROBLEM THAT YOUNG MEN ARE FACING RIGHT NOW.

THERE'S A LONELINESS CRISIS.

THEY'RE STRUGGLING FOR ECONOMIC VIABILITY.

IS THERE SOMETHING ABOUT THAT AUDIENCE THAT MAKES THEM MORE VULNERABLE TO HEARING OR SUBSCRIBING TO MASCULINISM WHEN THEY SEE IT ONLINE?

>> THE THING I HEAR A LOT PARTICULARLY FROM PARENTS OF TEENAGE BOYS IS THAT THERE HAS BEEN THIS MESSAGE TO BOYS THAT THEY ARE IN SOME WAY INHERENTLY TOXIC, THAT THEY ARE SORT OF STAINED BY ORIGINAL SIN, OR THAT THEY ARE MINI-TRIARCHS IN WAITING.

IT'S BEEN A WHILE SINCE I WAS A TEENAGER, BUT I CAN IMAGINE TEENAGE BOYS FEEL LIKE THIS.

YOU FEEL INSECURE.

YOU WANT PEOPLE TO LIKE YOU.

YOU DON'T HAVE A CV TO BOAST ABOUT, WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE.

I THINK THAT AUDIENCE, YOU FEEL FOR THEM.

IF YOU'RE A 17-YEAR-OLD BOY WHO'S DESPERATE TO FIND A BOYFRIEND OR GIRLFRIEND, WHO DOESN'T HAVE A WEEKEND JOB, AND THEN YOU GET TOLD THERE'S ALL THESE WAYS TO BE AN ALPHA GUY, I CAN SEE WHY IT'S A REALLY APPEALING MESSAGE AND I CAN SEE WHY IT'S A REAL TURN OFF IF YOU GET TOLD SOMETHING'S WRONG WITH YOU AND BEING MAGA IS THE WRONG.

>> YOU RELATE TO FEMINISM.

ARE WE LOOK AT LARGE CYCLES HERE WHEN FEMINISM SUCCEEDS YOU HAVE THIS LARGE PUSH BACK?

>> I THINK THAT'S THE HISTORY OF FEMINISM IN AMERICA, REALLY, AND IT'S ALSO INTERLACED WITH ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL AND TECHNICAL CHANGES, SO THEY ALL TEND TO HAPPEN AT THE SAME TIME.

I DON'T THINK YOU REALLY GET THE SECOND WAVE OF FEMINISM WITHOUT THE CONTRACEPTIVE PILL, WHICH JUST PUTS WOMEN IN CHARGE OF THEIR FERTILITY IN THE WAY THEY HAVEN'T BEFORE.

THEN YOU GET THIS TENSENESS, RIGHT?

IF WOMEN CAN SUPPORT THEMSELVES WITHOUT A MAN, HOW DO YOU KIND OF KEEP CONTROL OF THEM?

WHAT IF THEY DON'T HAVE CHILDREN.

>> WHAT IF THEY DON'T MARRIED?

I THINK IF YOU LOOK A LOT THROUGH THE ONLINE RIGHT NOW THOSE ARE REALLY BIG FEARS.

ONE OF THE BIG OBSESSIONS OF THE ONLINE RIGHT IS BIRTH RATES.

THAT IS THE SENSE THERE ARE PARTS OF THE WORLD HAVING A LOT MORE BABIES THAN THE DEVELOPED WORLD, AND IT IS FRAMED AS A SORT OF CIVILIZATIONAL THREAT.

BUT ALSO ABOUT IF WE GIVE WOMEN CHOICES, MAYBE THEY'LL MAKE CHOICES THAT WE DISAGREE WITH.

THOSE THINGS YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THEM IN A BROAD, HISTORICAL SWEEP, YEAH.

>> ONE OF THE PIECES OF DATA YOU HAVE IN THERE IS 83% OF REPUBLICAN MEN UNDER 50 YEARS OLD AGREE THAT SOCIETY HAS BECOME FEMININE.

NOW, WHETHER THEY CONTINUE TO HOLD THOSE VIEWS, I DON'T KNOW.

BUT THAT'S --THAT'S AN ENORMOUS NUMBER, AND THAT IS GOING TO BE THE GROUP THAT TAKES OVER THE PARTY.

>> I THINK IT'S REALLY INTERESTING THAT DATA BECAUSE IT'S NOT WRONG IN THE SENSE THAT, YOU KNOW, I WENT BACK 20 YEARS AND CONGRESS WAS 16% FEMALE.

3% OF THE S&P CEO s HAVE BEEN FEMALES.

THERE HAVE BEEN BIG ADVANCES.

SOME PEOPLE FOR THE FIRST TIME AROUND WILL HAVE A FEMALE BOSS FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THEIR LIFE.

ONE OF THE THINGS I WROTE ON FEMINISM IS HOW DIFFICULT IT CAN BE FOR MALE TEACHERS.

THEY CAN BE THE ONLY MAN IN THE STAFF ROOM.

IT WAS UNCOMFORTABLE FOR WOMEN ENTERING MALE- DOMINATED WORK FORCES AND FINDING THEY WERE THE ODD PERSON OUT.

AND THE SAME THING MIGHT BE HAPPENING TO MORE MEN.

THEY MIGHT NOT BE IN THE BIG DOMINANT GROUP IN PUBLISHING OR ACADEMIA, WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE.

SO I DON'T THINK THE CRITICISM IS COMPLETELY INVALID, RIGHT?

SOCIAL CHANGES HAVE HAPPENED, BUT THE QUESTION IS WHETHER OR NOT THE SLIGHTLY OVERBLOWN CLAIM THAT IT IS A KIND OF THREAT TO CIVILIZATION, AND EVERYTHING IS GOING TO HELL IN A HANDCART IS ACTUALLY --THAT'S THE BIT I THINK IS ACTUALLY HARDER TO PROVE IS WOMEN'S FAULT.

>> YOU SAY DIFFERENT EVIDENCE-BASED CLAIMS ARE BEING MADE.

YOU TALKED TO HELEN ANDREWS, A RELIGIOUS HISTORIAN.

YOU TALKED TO A POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, JOHN CORNISH DALE.

THERE WAS A QUOTE IN THERE.

LEFTIST HAVE EMBRACED LOW TESTOSTERONE AS PART OF THEIR IDENTITY.

WHY SHOULD THIS BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY?

IS THIS AN EDGE CASE THEY'RE AMPLIFYING OR IS THIS SOMETHING THAT HAS HAPPENED TO AM MAIN STREAM LEFT?

>> THE THESIS FROM FROM JOHN CORNISH DALEY WHOSE HANDLE IS ROAR EGG NATIONALIST, HE BELIEVES IN EATING 12 EGGS A DAY TO BOOST YOUR TESTOSTERONE LEVELS.

BUT THE NEWS IS SPERM RATES HAVE BEEN FALLING, TESTOSTERONE HAS BEEN FALLING.

THE SECOND POINT IS ACTUALLY IF YOU WERE A HIGH "T" AGGRESSIVE, VIRILE MAN YOU LIKE INEQUALITY, YOU LIKE ENTREPRENEURS, YOU LIKE STRIVING.

THE RIGHT OF POLITICS, THAT KIND OF COMPETITIVE ENERGY.

WHAT HIS CLAIM GOES ONTO SAY IS THAT LOW "T" CAUSES LIBERALISM, RIGHT?

MORE CONCERN ABOUT EQUALITY, MORE CONCERN ABOUT MAKING SURE OF EVERYBODY'S FEELINGS.

I FEEL THAT'S IMPOSING A FRAMED GENDER ONTO SOME FAIRLY BIG AND ABSTRACT CONCEPTS.

>> YOU MENTIONED THE BIRTHRATE, AND THERE WAS A RECENT EVENT AT THE WHITE HOUSE WHERE HEALTH SECRETARY RFK JR.

WAS TALKING ABOUT THE FALLING BIRTHRATE IN THE UNITED STATES, AND HE CALLED IT AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS.

AND DR.

OZ, THE HEAD OF CMS WARNED THAT AMERICANS ARE, QUOTE, UNDER-BABIED.

WHAT DO YOU HEAR WHEN THE ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS ARE USING RHETORIC LIKE THIS?

IS THE THE BIRTHRATE FALLING?

IF IT IS, WHAT'S WRONG WITH CALLING ATTENTION TO THAT?

>> THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

THE U. N. HAS BEEN WRITING ABOUT THIS SINCE THE 1990s BECAUSE IT IS A FINDING AS SOON AS WOMEN GET MORE EDUCATION ACCESS AND MORE ACCESS TO THE JOB MARKET, THE NUMBER OF CHILDREN THAT THEY HAVE FALLS.

AND YOU HAVE COUNTRIES THAT ARE BELOW 2.

1, WHICH IS SEEN AS THE REPLACEMENT RATE.

DEMOGRAPHICALLY IT'S A BIG CHALLENGE.

BUT PART OF THAT UNFORTUNATELY THE RETILTING OF SOCIETY HAS BECOME THE FACT THAT WE SUPPORT THE SENIORS A LOT MORE THAN WE SUPPORT YOUNG FAMILIES.

AND ACTUALLY THE DIFFICULT THING ABOUT THAT IS PERHAPS WE HAVEN'T YET FOUND THE CARROT THAT REALLY WORKS TO ENCOURAGE BIRTH RATES.

IT'S BEEN TRIED.

VARIOUS THINGS HAVE BEEN TRIED.

BABY BONUSES IN SINGAPORE OR INCOME TAX CHANGES IN HUNGRY, AND AT THE MOMENT THEY'RE NOT MASSIVELY SHIFTING THE NEEDLE.

IN AMERICA YOU'RE MUCH MORE LEFT ON YOUR OWN.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S NO FEDERAL MATERNITY LEAVE.

ACTUALLY IT'S NOT WRITTEN TO SUPPORT THE YOUNG FAMILIES IN THE REALLY CRUNCH YEARS THAT ARE HARDEST FOR THEM, AND I THINK THAT'S THE KIND OF THING TOTALLY LEGIT FOR A GOVERNMENT TO LOOK AT AND STUDY AND SAY, HANG ON A MINUTE, YES, THIS IS A PROBLEM.

WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT IT?

FOR ME THE BIT IS WORRYING ACTUALLY IF THE CARROTS DON'T WORK, ACTUALLY HOW MANY PEOPLE WANT THE STICK?

HOW MANY PEOPLE WANT TO EXCLUDE WOMEN FROM EDUCATION AND EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES AND STIGMATIZE PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE KIDS?

YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE BIT THAT IS ALWAYS SLIGHTLY LURKING UNDER THE SURFACE, AND I CAN NEVER QUITE BE SURE HOW SINCERE PEOPLE ARE IN FINDING A SOLUTION THAT WORKS FOR WOMEN RATHER THAN SORT OF BERATE THEM OR PUNISH THEM IN SOME WAY.

>> HELEN LEWIS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU.