HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> WE NEED EACH OTHER.

THE UNITED STATES NEEDS EUROPE AND EUROPE NEEDS THE UNITED STATES.

>> AS THE FRAGILE STALEMATE IN IRAN CONTINUES, AND THE UKRAINE WAR DRAGS ON, COULD TENSION BETWEEN THE U. S. AND EUROPE BENEFIT RUSSIA?

CHRISTIANE SPEAKS WITH CZECH PRESIDENT PETR PAVEL.

> >> THEN A CALL FOR U. S.

-UK UNITY AMID RISING TRANSATLANTIC TENSIONS.

VETERAN JOURNALIST ED LUCE JOINS ME AS WASHINGTON WELCOMES KING CHARLES.

> >> AND -- >> ALL THE KIDS SUFFER.

THEY WANT TO LIVE THEIR LIVES NORMALLY, BUT THEY PAY THE PRICE.

>> ISRAELI SETTLERS BLOCK PALESTINIAN CHILDREN FROM GOING TO SCHOOL.

ABIR SALMAN REPORTS.

> >> AND LATER -- >> IT'S STEALING MONEY FROM YOUR POCKETBOOK AND KEEPING YOU SICKER IS THE WAY OUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IS TREATING YOU.

>> A BARBARIC PROBLEM IN AMERICAN HOSPITALS.

HARI SREENIVASAN SPEAKS TO MEDICAL REPORTER ELISABETH ROSENTHAL ABOUT DYSFUNCTION IN U. S. HEALTH CARE.

>> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSEN BLUM.

MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

THERE IS A CHAIN REACTION HAPPENING ACROSS THE WORLD.

THE LONGSER THE WAR IN IRAN DRAGS ON, THE MORE THE U. S. DRAINS ITS GLOBAL SUPPLY OF CRITICAL WEAPONS.

THE LONGER OIL PRICES REMAIN HIGH, THE MORE RUSSIA REAPS THE REWARD, LEAVING EUROPE INCREASINGLY EXPOSED TO RUSSIAN PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN'S INSTINCTS, QUESTIONING WHETHER HE'LL SET HIS SIGHTS BEYOND UKRAINE.

NONETHELESS, THE DIPLOMATIC STALEMATE CONTINUES WITH U. S. PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP SIGNALING THAT HE IS UNLIKELY TO ACCEPT IRAN'S LATEST PROPOSAL TO END THE CONFLICT.

AND EUROPE LEFT ON THE SIDELINES, NOT CONSULTED BY THE WHITE HOUSE BEFORE THE WAR, AND TARGETED BY TRUMP FOR NOT SUPPORTING THE U. S. DURING THE FIGHTING.

WELL, NOW EUROPE IS PUSHING BACK.

IN AN APPEARANCE THIS WEEK, GERMAN CHANCELLOR FREDRICK MERZ CRITICIZED THE WHITE YOU JUST DON'T GO IN.

YOU HAVE TO GET OUT AGAIN.

WE SAW THAT ALL TO PAINFULLY IN AFGHANISTAN FOR 22 YEARS.

WE SAW THAT IN IRAQ.

SO THIS WHOLE AFFAIR, AS I SAID, IS ILL CONSIDERED, TO SAY THE LEAST.

THIS ENTIRE NATION IS BEING HUMILIATED BY THE IRANIAN STATE LEADERSHIP, ESPECIALLY BY THE SO-CALLED REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS.

>> OUR NEXT GUEST IS WELL PLACED TO DISCUSS ALL OF THIS.

PETR PAVEL IS PRESIDENT OF THE CZECH REPUBLIC.

HE IS FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF OF THE CZECH ARMED SERVICES AND SERVED AS CHAIR OF NATO'S MILITARY COMMITTEE.

AN ARDENT SUPPORTER OF THE WESTERN ALLIANCE, PAVEL SERVES IN ONE OF THE MOST EURO SKEPTIC COUNTRIES ON THE CONTINENT.

CHRISTIANE SPOKE TO PRESIDENT PAVEL ABOUT THE DANGEROUS CROSSCURRENTS ACROSS EUROPE AND THE WORLD AT A CONFERENCE IN PRAGUE.

HERE IS THEIR CONVERSATION.

>> THANK YOU, MR.

PRESIDENT.

WELCOME TO THIS INTERVIEW.

AND CAN I JUST ASK YOU, BECAUSE I'M HERE A COUPLE OF WEEKS AFTER THE POLITICAL LANDSCAPE AROUND THIS PART OF EASTERN EUROPE IS CHANGING SOMEWHAT WITH THE DEFEAT OF PRIME MINISTER ORBAN.

I JUST WONDERED HOW YOU'RE FEELING ABOUT THE RELATIVE BALANCE OF POWER NOW.

>> WELL, WE MAY FEEL A LITTLE BIT RELAXED, BECAUSE VIKTOR ORBAN WAS REPRESENTING A BLOCKING POWER IN THE EU ESPECIALLY WITH REGARD TO SUPPORT IN UKRAINE.

BUT I WOULD RATHER WAIT FOR CONCRETE EDS THAN WORDS.

>> I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS VOCALLY SAID WHETHER IT WAS J. D. VANCE, THE VICE PRESIDENT IN MUNICH, WHETHER IT'S THE STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL MR.

SAMPSON, WHO HAS BEEN GOING AROUND EUROPE ALLIES AND ESSENTIALLY INSTRUCTING THEM THAT THEY NEED TO BE MORE RIGHT-WING IN TERMS OF MORE MAGA.

THAT'S MY SHORTHAND.

HAVE YOU COME ACROSS THAT HERE?

>> I WOULD RATHER SAY THAT IT WAS A MISJUDGMENT BECAUSE J. D. VANCE CLEARLY HELPED PETR MAGYAR TO WIN BY HIS INTERVENTION.

>> ALL RIGHT.

SO WE'LL LEAVE IT AT THAT.

ONE OF THE LATEST THINGS THAT UKRAINE AND CERTAINLY ALL UKRAINE'S BACKER ARE PLEASED ABOUT IS THE DEFEAT OF VIKTOR ORBAN AND WITH THE ELECTION OF PETER MAGYAR, THIS 90-PLUS BILLION EURO LOAN HAS BEEN APPROVED.

I SPOKE TO PRESIDENT VOLNOVAKHA LAST WEEK WHO SAID IT WAS CRITICAL, LITERALLY A MATTER OF LIFE AND DEATH.

HOW IMPORTANT WAS IT?

>> ANY SUPPORT TO UKRAINE AT THIS POINT IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT.

BEING FINANCIAL SUPPORT TO JUST AROUND THE COUNTRY AND ACQUIRE ALL EQUIPMENT AND MATERIAL THEY NEEDED TO EFFECTIVELY DEFEND THEMSELVES.

MILITARY SUPPORT, AMMUNITION SUPPORT, AND ON THE OTHER HAND, CONTINUING PRESSURE ON RUSSIA.

AND WHILE WE MAINTAIN I WOULD SAY SAME EFFORT IN SUPPORTING UKRAINE, WE ARE SOMEHOW FAIL IN MAINTAINING PRESSURE ON RUSSIA.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY SAID THAT TO ME.

HE SAID THAT ACTUALLY, THE UNITED STATES PUTS MORE PRESSURE ON HIM, AND HE IS THE DEFENDER, AS HE SAYS, THAN ON THE AGGRESSOR, RUSSIA.

WHAT DO YOU THINK CAN BE DONE TO CHANGE THAT?

OR IS THIS HOW IT'S GOING TO BE?

>> CLEARLY MIDDLE EAST HAS BECOME A PRIORITY OVER UKRAINE FOR AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION AT THIS POINT.

AND IT GAVE RUSSIA TIME TO BREATHE.

AND THEY ALSO SEE THAT THEY ARE DIVERTING OIL, MATERIAL SUPPORT, ESPECIALLY INTERCEPTORS FOR AIR DEFENSE TO MIDDLE EAST, AND THEY ARE NOW MISSING IN UKRAINE, GIVES RUSSIA TIME TO RECONSTITUTE THEIR CAPABILITIES, ALSO INCREASING THE COST OF OIL GIVES RUSSIA ADDITIONAL FINANCIAL RESOURCES TO SUPPORT THE WAR MACHINE.

AND IT ALSO GIVES VLADIMIR PUTIN MORE HOPE THAT HE CAN ACHIEVE MORE THAN HE PROBABLY BELIEVED A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO.

>> YOU WERE THE HEAD OF YOUR COUNTRY'S MILITARY.

YOU KNOW ABOUT WAR.

IS HE RIGHT?

CAN HE WIN THIS ON THE BATTLEFIELD?

>> I DON'T THINK SO.

FIRST, THE LOSSES, THE CASUALTIES THAT RUSSIA IS SUFFERING ARE INCREASING.

THEY ARE NOW EXCEEDING CAPACITY TO RECRUIT NEW MANPOWER.

PEOPLE IN RUSSIA ARE INCREASINGLY TIRED.

AND I WOULD SAY ALSO LESS CAPABLE TO UNDERSTAND THE RATIONAL PROVIDED TO THEM BY RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA.

THE WAR FATIGUE IS OMNIPRESENT.

IT'S IN UKRAINE, IN THE CONTRIBUTING COUNTRIES, BUT ALSO IN RUSSIA.

AND INCREASINGLY FOR RUSSIAN REGIME, IT WILL BE MORE AND MORE DIFFICULT TO CONVINCE PEOPLE THAT IT'S IN THEIR INTEREST TO CONTINUE THE WAR.

AND WAR INITIATED ON THE BATTLEFIELD IS NOT FAST ENOUGH TO CONTROL MORE TERRITORY AND TO EXPRESS --TO PRESENTED TO RUSSIAN PUBLIC AS SUCCESS.

AND THIS IS WHAT VLADIMIR PUTIN DELIBERATELY NEEDS, TO SOMEHOW COME TO THE END OF WHAT HE CALLS SPECIAL OPERATION WITH A GREAT SUCCESS.

>> BUT TO MY QUESTION ABOUT HOW THEN DO YOU PRESSURE HIM, HOW DOES THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, WHO IS THE HEAD OF NATO, THE SUPER POWER IN THE WORLD, USE HIS LEVERAGE TO PRESSURE VLADIMIR PUTIN TO AT LEAST COME TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE?

>> ONE SIDE OF IT GOING IS ECONOMIC PRESSURE CONTINUING IN THE SANCTIONS.

BUT ALSO, LOOK AT THIRD COUNTRIES WHO ARE PROVIDING AN OPPORTUNITY FOR CIRCUMVENTION OF SANCTIONS.

BUT ALSO I THINK ONE PART OF IT IS DIPLOMATIC EFFORT, OFFERING RUSSIA NOT ONLY A NEGOTIATION ON UKRAINE, BUT AS A NEXT STEP NEGOTIATION ON SECURITY REGIME IN EUROPE IN GENERAL.

BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT RUSSIA WAS CALLING FOR, FOR YEARS.

AND I BELIEVE LET'S SAY USE THEIR OWN ARGUMENT THAT IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT UKRAINE.

IT'S ABOUT SECURITY IN EUROPE.

AND THERE IS A BIG DEBATE AHEAD OF US ON TREATIES THAT HAVE EXPIRED, ON CONVENTIONAL WEAPONS, ON NUCLEAR WEAPONS, ON DISARMAMENT.

THERE IS A GREAT ROOM FOR NEGOTIATION ON MILITARY EXERCISES, ON MODERNIZATION, ON TRUST-BUILDING MEASURES LIKE OPEN SKIES.

AND I THINK IF WE ARE READY TO OPEN ALL THESE CHAPTERS, IT WILL PROVIDE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR RUSSIA TO THINK BIGGER THAN JUST UKRAINE OR DONBAS.

>> SO, BUT FIRST THEY HAVE TO END THE WAR IN UKRAINE?

>> OF COURSE.

>> I SEE.

THAT'S THE CONDITION.

>> THAT'S THE FIRST STEP.

>> YOU JUST TOUCHED ON THE WAR IN IRAN.

CLEARLY, EUROPE AND THE REST OF THE WORLD, ASIA, AFRICA, THE REST OF THE MIDDLE EAST IS FEELING A REAL ECONOMIC BACKLASH RIGHT NOW.

>> I BELIEVE THAT WE WILL NEED A SERIOUS DEBATE ABOUT ALL POTENTIAL IMPACTS ON OUR ECONOMY.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I ALSO THINK THAT THERE IS NOW GREAT ROOM FOR NEGOTIATION TO END OF THIS CONFLICT AND TO RENEW NEGOTIATION WITH IRAN, ESPECIALLY ON HIS NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

>> THE TWO SIDES ARE IN STALEMATE.

THEY HAVE ZERO TRUST.

DO YOU SEE ANY ROOT TO A NEGOTIATION FROM YOUR SIDE, FROM THE WEST SIDE, FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SIDE?

>> WELL, FIRST, FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF CENTRAL EUROPEAN COUNTRY, WHAT I MISS IS A MORE INVOLVEMENT OF OTHER ACTORS.

IT IS NOW ACTUALLY TRILATERAL ISSUE BETWEEN IRAN, ISRAEL, AND UNITED STATES.

I BELIEVE IF EUROPE WAS INVOLVED FROM THE BEGINNING, AT LEAST THROUGH CONSULTATIONS, EUROPE WOULD ALSO BE MUCH MORE ENGAGED IN POST CONFLICT NEGOTIATION.

EUROPE, EU HAS DONE A LOT IN CONCLUDING THIS AGREEMENT SOME TIME AGO.

THERE IS -- >> THE NUCLEAR DEAL, THE 2015.

YES.

>> THERE IS A GOOD EXPERTISE FOR NEGOTIATION, THIS NUCLEAR DEAL.

I BELIEVE THAT EUROPE COULD DO MUCH MORE, BUT WE ARE NOT PART OF IT.

EUROPEAN COUNTRIES WERE BLAMED NOT TO COME TO ASSISTANCE, BUT HOW COULD WE WHEN WE WERE NOT INVITED AT THE BEGINNING.

>> YES.

AND PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS THREATENED ALL SORTS OF PUNISHMENTS ON EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, PARTICULARLY NATO COUNTRIES.

ARE YOU CONCERNED?

I MEAN, HE HAS LASHED OUT AT SPAIN.

HE'S JUST ANGRY, CALLS YOU ALL COWARDS FOR NOT COMING TO FORCE THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ OPEN, FOR INSTANCE.

>> WELL, I KNOW HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO TELL TO PRESIDENT TRUMP ANYTHING THAT HE DOESN'T WANT TO HEAR.

>> HAVE YOU TRIED IT?

>> WELL --I DIDN'T HAVE A CHANCE.

BUT I BELIEVE THAT WHAT HE NEEDS TO HEAR THAT BY HAVING DIFFERENT OPINION, WE ARE NOT AN ENEMY.

WE ARE ON THE SAME SIDE.

WHAT WE WANT IS A FAIR TREATMENT.

AND I BELIEVE THAT SHOULD EUROPEAN COUNTRIES WERE INVOLVED AT THE BEGINNING, THAT THERE WOULD BE MUCH MORE WILLINGNESS TO TAKE PART, POTENTIALLY IN ALSO SUPPORTING OPERATIONS, FOR EXAMPLE, IN CONTROL, ACCESS THROUGH HORMUZ STRAIT.

THEY WERE NOT TREATED AS ALLIES AT THE BEGINNING AND ARE NOW BEING BLAMED AS COWARDS.

I FULLY UNDERSTAND THEY TAKE IT AS UNFAIR, AND WE WANT TO BE FAIR.

WE WANT TO BE FAIR ALLIES.

WE HAVE TO TALK TO EACH OTHER AS EQUALS.

NOT AS DEPENDENT CHILD.

>> DO YOU THINK IT WAS A MISTAKE FOR TRUMP TO HAVE PULLED OUT OF THE JCPOA, PARTICULARLY BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING TO PUT IN ITS PLACE?

BECAUSE RIGHT NOW IRAN IS JACKED UP OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS ITS ENRICHMENT TO 60%.

>> I HEARD NUMBER OF TIMES IT WAS A BAD AGREEMENT.

BUT I'M NOT SUPPORTING THE IDEA THAT IT MIGHT BE BETTER TO HAVE NO AGREEMENT THAN BAD ONE.

I THINK A BAD AGREEMENT IS BETTER THAN HAVING NOTHING.

BECAUSE A BAD AGREEMENT CAN BE IMPROVED, WHILE IF WE DON'T HAVE ANY, THEN THERE ARE NO RESTRICTIONS.

I THINK THE ONLY WAY WILL BE TO GET, AGAIN, TO NEGOTIATION.

SIT AT THE TABLE TOGETHER.

IDEALLY, AND NOT ONLY UNITED STATES AND IRAN, BUT ALSO EUROPEAN UNION, POTENTIALLY OTHER ACTORS LIKE COUNTRIES THAT HAVE A LOT OF TRADE WITH IRAN LIKE CHINA, INDIA, AND THEN NEGOTIATING NEW DEAL THAT WILL BE BETTER THAN THE FIRST ONE.

BUT I DON'T SEE ANY POINT IN CONTINUING MILITARY OPERATION WITHOUT HAVING PLAN B FOR POST WAR ARRANGEMENT.

>> LET'S JUST TALK ABOUT ISRAEL FOR A MOMENT.

YOU'VE SEEN MANY OF YOUR EUROPEAN COUNTERPARTS BEGINNING TO HARDEN THEIR VIEWS ON HOW THEY SEND MILITARY AID TO ISRAEL, ET CETERA.

WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF HOW YOUR COUNTRY SHOULD AND THE EU SHOULD HAVE AN ENGAGEMENT WITH ISRAEL.

IS IT JUST BLIND SUPPORT, AS IT HAS BEEN FOR DECADES, FOR OBVIOUS REASONS, OR ARE THERE CONDITIONS THAT SHOULD BE OR COULD BE ATTACHED?

>> THIS COUNTRY IS LONG- TIME SUPPORTER FROM ISRAEL.

FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, WE STOOD BEHIND.

WE ASSISTED ISRAEL IN A NUMBER OF WAYS IN THEIR ORIGINAL PHASE OF FORMING THE STATEHOOD.

AND WE ARE SUPPORTING ISRAEL EVEN TODAY.

BUT IT'S NOT --IT'S NOT BLACK AND WHITE SUPPORT.

I THINK FROM TIME TO TIME WE HAVE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN SUPPORTING ISRAEL AND SUPPORTING BENJAMIN NETANYAHU.

NOT ALL HIS STEPS COULD BE APPROVED WITHOUT ANY CONCERN.

AND I THINK WE SHOULD BE VERY FIRM, BUT ALSO VERY OPEN AND FRANK IN MAINTAINING SUPPORT TO ISRAEL WHILE KEEPING AN OPPORTUNITY AND POSSIBILITY TO BE CRITICAL TO SOME DECISIONS OF BENJAMIN NETANYAHU.

>> BACK TO EUROPE.

I MEAN, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SITTING AROUND SAYING -- I MEAN SERIOUS PEOPLE, THAT GET READY.

THERE'S GOING TO BE WAR IN EUROPE, RUSSIA ATTACKING EUROPE.

LET'S SAY THE BALTIC STATES, AND THEN AND THEN.

DO YOU SUBSCRIBE TO THAT FEAR?

DO YOU THINK IT'S AN ACTUAL LIVING POSSIBILITY?

I KNOW IN THEORY ONE HAS TO PREPARE.

BUT DO YOU THINK WE'RE CLOSE TO WAR WITH RUSSIA?

>> I WOULD PROBABLY LOOK AT IT FROM TWO PERSPECTIVES.

ONE IS HISTORICAL, WHERE RUSSIAN AND BEFORE THAT SOVIET LEADERS MAINTAINED THE ARGUMENT THAT YOU CANNOT DEFEND SUCH A HUGE COUNTRY WITHOUT EXPANSION.

AND THAT'S WHY ALL THE CZARS AND THEN THE GENERAL SECRETARIES OF COMMUNIST PARTY AND NOW THE PRESIDENT, THEY TRY TO CREATE SOME ZONE OF INFLUENCE OR BUFFER ZONE TO PROTECT RUSSIA FROM EXTERNAL ENEMIES.

TODAY THERE IS ALSO ANOTHER REASON.

AND THAT IS RUSSIA HAS TURNED ALL ITS ECONOMY INTO A WAR MACHINE.

IT'S EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO TURN IT BACK.

THERE IS NO SWITCH TO PEACE MODE.

AND MAINTAINING SUCH AN ECONOMY RUNNING, IN FACT, NEEDS AN OUTPUT, WHERE YOU WOULD PUT ALL THIS PRODUCTION.

YOU HAVE NOW MORE THAN A MILL AND A HALF TRAINED SOLDIERS.

MANY OF THEM, IF THE WAR IS OVER, WILL RETIRE WITH ALL THE DIFFICULTIES AND PROBLEMS OF WAR.

AND THEN IF YOU ARE IN A POSITION OF RUSSIAN LEADER, AND YOU WOULD SEE WEAKENED EUROPE, WEAKENED GREAT OF UNITED STATES OVER EUROPEAN SECURITY, WELL, THAT'S A GOOD CHANCE.

LET'S USE IT.

SO I SHOULD -- I WOULD SAY LET'S LOOK AT IT ALSO FROM ANOTHER POINT OF VIEW OF OPPORTUNITY FOR RUSSIA.

NOT NECESSARILY TO LAUNCH A MASSIVE OPERATION IN EUROPE, BUT TO HUMILIATE NATO BY STARTING LET'S SAY A LIMITED MILITARY ACTION, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE BALTICS.

AND BY DOING THAT, TO CLEARLY DEMONSTRATE THAT NATO IS ACTUALLY USELESS BECAUSE IT DOESN'T ACT.

>> UNLESS IT ACTS.

>> UNLESS IT ACTS.

BUT THE QUESTION IS IF UNITED STATES OR PRESIDENT TRUMP CONTINUE IN THE NARRATIVE, WE WILL NOT DEFEND THE COUNTRIES THAT AREN'T SPENDING ENOUGH.

WE WILL WITHDRAW OUR CAPABILITIES, THEN THE WHOLE ARTICLE 5 GETS A DIFFERENT MEANING, BECAUSE ARTICLE 5 IS NOT AN AUTOMATIC GUARANTEE.

IT'S AN EXPRESSION OF POLITICAL WILL.

>> AND OF COURSE THAT ARTICLE 5 IS AN ATTACK ON ONE IS AN ATTACK ON ALL.

YEP.

WELL, THAT'S QUITE SOBERING TO HEAR YOU SAY THAT, AS SOMEBODY WHO COMMANDED THE SECTOR OF NATO.

AND WHO COMMANDED YOUR OWN ARMY.

WHAT ABOUT YOU, THEN?

THIS COUNTRY IS NOT PAYING ITS --IS NOT SPENDING ITS 2% GDP TO BOLSTER.

IN OTHER WORDS, OKAY, WHY AREN'T YOU DOING IT?

>> WELL, YOU'RE RIGHT.

THAT ALSO MAKES ME NERVOUS BECAUSE FACING ALL THESE THREATS THAT ARE REAL, IT'S NOT JUST A HYPOTHESIS.

WE SHOULD BE MORE SAY CREDIBLE NOT ONLY TO OUR ALLIES, BUT MOSTLY TO OUR OWN CITIZENS.

WE CANNOT MAINTAIN THE IDEA THAT WE ARE SAFE, CIRCLED BY ALLIES AND FRIENDS, THE WAR IS FAR AWAY FROM US.

AND IF WE EXPRESS LOUD ENOUGH THAT WE WANT PEACE, WE WOULD HAVE IT.

AND I THINK THIS IS NOT THE WAY TO GO.

AND I HAVE LOTS OF DEBATES WITH OUR GOVERNMENT TO BEHAVE MORE RESPONSIBLY, TO --NOT ONLY EXPRESS OUR WILLINGNESS TO SPEND A PERCENTAGE DEMANDED BY OUR OWN COMMITMENT, BUT TO SPEND ON DEVELOPING REAL CAPABILITIES THAT ARE EXPRESSED BY NATO DEFENSE PLANNING, ALL THESE CAPABILITY TARGETS THAT LEAD TO READY TROOPS THAT WILL BE PHYSICALLY PRESENT AND READY TO DEFEND US IF WE NEED THEM.

BECAUSE THE WAR WILL NOT BE FOUGHT WITH THE CHARTS.

IT WILL BE FOUGHT WITH REAL SOLDIERS AND REAL EQUIPMENT.

>> YOU JUST EARLIER SAID RUSSIA HAS TURNED ITS WHOLE ECONOMY OVER TO A WAR ECONOMY.

THAT'S KIND OF WHAT'S BEING ASKED OF NATO COUNTRIES AS WELL.

I MEAN, NOT THE WHOLE ECONOMY, BUT A HUGE SECTOR OF THE ECONOMY IS BEING ASKED TO TURN OVER BECAUSE PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS MADE IT CLEAR THAT AT LEAST FOR THE MOMENT, YOU CAN'T DEPEND ON THE UNITED STATES.

>> THAT'S TRUE.

TO SOME EX- STEFNLT BUT UNDERSTANDING THAT WE WERE SPENDING FOR AT LEAST A DECADE MUCH LESS WAS REQUIRED.

>> YEAH.

>> WE ARE NOW TRIED TO DO WITH THE INCREASE THE DEFENSE PRODUCTION AS JUST GETTING TO THE LEVEL THAT IT USED TO BE HERE LET'S SAY 10, 15 YEARS AGO.

AND IN THE PAST, WE ALL UNDERSTOOD THAT ABOUT 2% OF GDP WAS JUST GOOD ENOUGH TO MEET ALL THE CRITERIA FOR COLLECTIVE DEFENSE.

NOW IT WILL BE MORE FOR SOME TIME.

BUT ONCE WE, AGAIN, GET TO A SUFFICIENT LEVEL WHERE WE WILL BE IN A POSITION TO SAY WELL, WE CAN EFFECTIVELY NOW DEFEND THIS CONTINENT, THEN THERE WILL BE NO NEED TO INCREASING TRAJECTORY.

BUT IT OBVIOUSLY -- >> HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE?

>> I BELIEVE IT WILL TAKE ABOUT ONE DECADE OF INCREASED SPENDING TO FILL ALL THE GAPS THAT WE CREATED OVER THE LAST DECADE.

>> AND I GUESS FINAL QUESTION.

DO YOU FEAR THAT NATO WILL BE BUSTED, THAT EVEN TRUMP TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, TALKING IT DOWN COULD JUST CAUSE THE END OF THE TRANSATLANTIC ALLIANCE IN THAT REGARD AND THEREFORE PUT ALL OF YOU TO HAVE TO DEFEND YOURSELVES AND HAVE TO HAVE A WHOLE ANOTHER ARRANGEMENT?

>> FRANKLY, I BELIEVE THAT WE NEED EACH OTHER.

THE UNITED STATES NEED EUROPE, AND EUROPE NEEDS THE UNITED STATES.

BUT WE WERE ACTUALLY NEVER EQUAL PARTNERS.

I THINK EUROPE HAS GROWN UP.

TO COME UP WITH OWN CAPABILITIES, TO BE A PARTNER MEANS NOT TO BE DEPENDENT.

TO BE ABLE TO ACT INDEPENDENTLY FROM THE UNITED STATES, BUT WITH CLEAR PREFERENCE OF ALWAYS ACTING TOGETHER.

BUT UNITED STATES FROM ANY REASON DECIDE NOT TO TAKE PART IN EUROPEAN DEFENSE, WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO IT ON OUR OWN.

AND THAT'S IN MY WAY GOOD PARTNERSHIP.

THAT MEANS WE WILL BE BOTH EQUALLY STRONG, EQUALLY INDEPENDENT, BUT ALWAYS PREFERRING TO WORK TOGETHER.

THIS IS THE END IN MY VIEW FOR EUROPE.

TO DEVELOP ALL STRATEGIC ENABLERS TO ENABLE US TO ACT ON OUR OWN, TO COME UP WITH SUBSTITUTE OF AMERICAN POSITIONS IN NATO COMMAND STRUCTURE IF NECESSARY, TO HAVE SOME REPLACEMENTS, AND ALSO TO CREATE SUFFICIENT WILL AND DECISION MAKING TO ACT WITHIN EUROPEAN PILLAR OF NATO WITH OR WITHOUT AMERICAN PRESENCE.

THAT IS IN MY VIEW THE END OF --NOT THE END -- IT'S THE WAY TO BETTER TRANSATLANTIC PARTNERSHIP, NOT THE END OF NATO, NOT THE BEGINNING OF NEW NATO, BUT IT WILL BE FINALLY NATO THAT WE WANTED FROM THE VERY BEGINNING.

>> AND YOU'RE GOING TO NATO, RIGHT, TO THE SUMMIT?

>> I BELIEVE SO.

>> AND YOU WILL PUT THIS DOWN ON THE TABLE?

>> WELL, I THINK THERE IS NO NEED TO CHANGE THE PRACTICE THAT WE USED TO HAVE UP TO NOW.

>> PRESIDENT PETR PAVEL, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> WELL, NORMALLY THE PRESIDENT OF THE CZECH REPUBLIC WOULD BE GOING TO THE NATO SUMMIT, BUT THIS TIME THERE IS A QUESTION MARK SURROUNDING HIS ATTENDANCE WITH THE CZECH PRIME MINISTER INSTEAD VYING TO REPRESENT THE COUNTRY AT THE TALKS.

JUST THE LATEST DISPUTE IN A STRING OF CLASHES WITH THE PRESIDENT AND THE COALITION GOVERNMENT THERE.

> >> NOW THERE IS POMP AMIDST THE POLITICS IN WASHINGTON TODAY AS THE CAPITAL WELCOMES KING CHARLES III AND QUEEN CAMILLA.

ON THIS, THE SECOND DAY OF HIS U. S. VISIT, KING CHARLES ATTENDS A FORMAL WELCOME CEREMONY AT THE WHITE HOUSE, ADDRESSES A JOINT MEETING OF CONGRESS, AND IT'S JUST THE SECOND TIME THAT A BRITISH MONARCH WILL BE SPEAKING AT THE CAPITOL.

TONIGHT HE WILL BE ATTENDING A STATE DINNER AT THE WHITE HOUSE.

THE ROYAL VISIT COMES MIDST A TENSE TIME.

RELATIONS HAVE BEEN STRAINED SINCE THE START OF THE WAR WITH IRAN.

HERE IS ED LUCE, FROM BRITAIN'S "FINANCIAL TIMES" AND JOINS US NOW FROM WASHINGTON.

YOU COULD ARGUE THAT THE RELATIONSHIP HASN'T BEEN STRAINED BETWEEN THESE TWO COUNTRIES AS MUCH AS IT IS NOW.

YOU HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE SUEZ CANAL CRISIS SO MANY DECADES AGO.

AND YET THE PRESIDENT SEEMS TO HAVE WELCOMED THE KING AND THE QUEEN WITH OPEN ARMS, QUITE AFFECTIONATE TOWARDS THE ROYAL FAMILY THERE HIMSELF.

AND YOU WRITE IN YOUR LATEST COLUMN THAT KING CHARLES HAS TO THREAD A ROYAL NEEDLE THIS WEEK.

WHAT EXACTLY DOES HE HAVE TO DO BOTH TO PLEASE PRESIDENT TRUMP, BUT ALSO PLEASE HIS CONSTITUENTS BACK HOME.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON, BIANA.

THREADING THE ROYAL NEEDLE IS I THINK OBVIOUSLY BRINGING FRUITS TO THE VOLCANO, AS SOME PEOPLE SAY, TRYING TO SORT OF BRING TRUMP ON SIDE.

BUT ALSO TO CONVEY TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THAT HE'S HERE TO CELEBRATE THEIR 250 YEARS OF INDEPENDENCE.

HE'S NOT JUST HERE AS A GUEST OF PRESIDENT TRUMP.

I HAVE NO DOUBT, BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT KING CHARLES IS TRAINED TO DO.

HIS WHOLE LIFE HAS BEEN ABOUT THIS, THAT HE WILL SUBTLY AND THROUGH VARIOUS ILLUSIONS SPEAK TO BOTH AUDIENCES IN HIS ADDRESS TO CONGRESS.

THERE HAVE BEEN PLENTY OF DIFFICULT MOMENTS IN ANGLO AMERICAN RELATIONS.

I THINK THE VIETNAM WAR WAS ANOTHER.

HAROLD WILSON, THE BRITISH PRIME MINISTER, DID NOT COMMIT BRITISH TROOPS TO VIETNAM.

AND LBJ, LYNDON JOHNSON WAS NOT HAPPY WITH THAT.

BUT THEY DIDN'T GET A ROYAL VISIT TO HELP EASE TENSIONS.

THIS ONE, IF TO JUDGE BY WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID THIS MORNING, SEEMS TO BE WORKING FROM THE BRITISH POINT OF VIEW.

>> AND HE STUCK TO SCRIPT AS WELL, AND THAT SPEAKS POSITIVELY OF HOW THE PRESIDENT FEELS TOWARDS KING CHARLES AND QUEEN CAMILLA.

BUT THERE HAS BEEN SOME BREAKING NEWS THIS MORNING THAT MAY MAKE AT LEAST DOWNING STREET A BIT UNEASY IN TERMS OF THE TIMING HERE.

AND THAT KEIR STARMER'S NEW --LEAKED AUDIO OF THE NEW AMBASSADOR TELLING STUDENTS BACK IN FEBRUARY THIS YEAR, BRITISH STUDENTS VISITING, THAT AMERICA'S ONLY TRUE SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP WAS ACTUALLY WITH ISRAEL.

I BELIEVE WE HAVE A PORTION OF THAT AUDIO TO PLAY FOR OUR VIEWERS.

>> HE WENT ON TO SAY THAT HE THINKS IT'S EXTRAORDINARY THAT THE EPSTEIN CANAL, WHICH COST HIS PREDECESSOR PETER MENDELSSOHN HIS JOB, HASN'T TOUCHED ANYONE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES AS WELL.

HOW MUCH DOES THIS PULL THE RUG OUT FROM UNDER KING CHARLES' MESSAGE TODAY, IF AT ALL?

AND HOW IS IT BEING RECEIVED BACK IN LONDON?

>> SO --AND I'M GUESSING THAT WHEN CHARLES ADDRESSES CONGRESS, THAT'S GOING TO SORT OF BLOT OUT ANY OTHER ATTENTION ON THE SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP OR NOT, AS THE CASE MAY BE.

IT IS UNFORTUNATE FOR CHRISTIAN TURNER.

HE TURNED UP IN JANUARY.

HE IS SORT OF TOP OF HIS FIELD OF HIS CLASS IN THE BRITISH FOREIGN OFFICE.

AND THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, SOME TEENAGER RECORDED THIS AND LEAKED IT IS UNLUCKY, I THINK.

I SUSPECT HE'LL SURVIVE THIS.

HE IS BRITAIN'S TOP DIPLOMAT.

IT WASN'T A CONTROVERSIAL APPOINTMENT, AND I SUSPECT, I MIGHT EVEN SAY HOPE HE'LL GET PAST THIS.

>> THE TIMING, THOUGH, I WOULD IMAGINE, ISN'T IDEAL.

AND WE'LL SEE IF THE PRESIDENT IS ASKED ABOUT THIS, SPECIFICALLY, THE EPSTEIN PART OF THIS AUDIO AS WELL.

BECAUSE YOU KNOW THAT HE GETS QUITE IRKED AS HE DID WITH THE "60 MINUTES" INTERVIEW WHEN HE WAS ASKED ABOUT THE WOULD-BE ASSASSIN'S APPARENT MOTIVATION AND MANIFESTO THAT WAS FOUND ON HIM.

LET'S TALK ABOUT JUST THE SPAN OF RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN THESE TWO COUNTRIES OTHER THE LAST DECADE ALONE.

WE'RE NEARLY TEN YEARS OUT FROM THE BREXIT VOTE.

AND DO YOU STILL SEE A BRITISH ECONOMY THAT CONTINUES TO BE MARGINALIZED IN THE WORLD.

WHAT EXACTLY IS IT, IF ANYTHING, THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP AND THE KING CAN ADDRESS BEHIND CLOSED DOORS TO PERHAPS EASE UP ON ISSUES RELATED TO TARIFFS OR OTHER ECONOMIC TIES BETWEEN THESE TWO COUNTRIES TO INTEGRATE THEM BETTER?

>> WELL, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF THINGS.

AND I'D ADD TO THAT LIST THAT BRITAIN AND I THINK FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND THE KING PERSONALLY ARE QUITE COMMITTED TO THE UKRAINIAN CAUSE.

AND SO I WOULD BE SURPRISED IF HE DIDN'T ALLUDE TO THAT IN SOME WAY IN THIS SPEECH, BUT ALSO PERHAPS MORE DIRECTLY WITH THE PRESIDENT IN PRIVATE.

THIS IS AN EXTREMELY DIFFICULT PATCH IN UK-U.

S. RELATIONS.

I TEND TO AGREE THAT SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP IS AN OVERUSED, OVERWROUGHT TERM, AND USUALLY USED MORE BY THE BRITISH SIDE THAN THE AMERICAN SIDE.

BUT AT A TIME LIKE THIS, YOU KNOW, WHEN THERE IS HUGE DIVERGENCE ON THINGS LIKE THE IRAN WAR, ON THINGS LIKE MULTICULTURALISM BECAUSE THE LABOR DEPARTMENT IN BRITAIN DOES EMBRACE BRITISH MULTICULTURALISM, IT'S GOING TO BE QUITE HARD FOR A KING, NO MATTER HOW PRACTICED OR EXPERIENCE HEAD IS TO DO A HUGE AMOUNT TO BRIDGE THOSE GULFS.

THESE ARE DEEP AND POLITICAL, AND THEY'RE NOT JUST CONFINED TO UK-U.

S. RELATIONS.

MOST EUROPEAN COUNTRIES' RELATIONS WITH THE U. S. ARE STRAINED.

WHAT CHARLES CAN DO IS PROVIDE THE KING WITH YOU KNOW, THE SORT OF ROYAL COMPANY THAT HE ALWAYS SEEMS TO SORT OF LIKE AND CRAVE EVER SINCE HIS MOTHER HAD HIM WATCHING THE CORONATION OF ELIZABETH WHEN HE WAS 6 YEARS OLD.

SO THERE IS A DIPLOMATIC BOND THE MONARCHY BRINGS, PARTICULARLY WITH TRUMP.

I HAVE TO STRESS THE SPEECH TRUMP GAVE THIS MORNING IS MORE FULSOME THAN ANYTHING I'VE EVER HEARD ABOUT UK-U.

S. RELATIONSHIP.

IT WAS ARGUABLY WAY OVER THE TOP.

BUT IT DOES SHOW THAT THE ROYAL MAGIC WORKS ON PRESIDENT TRUMP.

>> DOES IT CHANGE AT ALL THE PRESIDENT'S PERCEPTION, RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PRIME MINISTER AT THIS POINT?

>> MAYBE FOR A FEW DAYS.

BUT, YOU KNOW, IF THE PRIME MINISTER DOESN'T, AS HE WON'T, SWING BEHIND THE IRAN WAR IN ANYTHING OTHER THAN HELPING WITH THE DEFENSE OF ALLIES IN THE GULF AND ISRAEL, THEN TRUMP IS GOING CONTINUE TO BE IRKED THAT WHAT HE SEES A POLITICAL LETDOWN BY BRITAIN, AND HE IS GOING TO CONTINUE TO REFER TO STARMER AS SOMEBODY WHO ISN'T LIKE WINSTON CHURCHILL.

SO I DON'T THINK THAT'S GOING TO LAST FOR VERY LONG IN TERMS OF KEIR STARMER, AND NEITHER MIGHT HE IN HIS JOB, WHICH WAS, BY THE WAY, ANOTHER PORTION OF THE SORT OF LEAKED COMMENTS THAT THE AMBASSADOR MADE TO THOSE STUDENTS BACK IN FEBRUARY.

STARMER IS ON THE ROPES.

>> THE REVERBERATIONS OF THE EPSTEIN SCANDAL STILL BEING FELT ACROSS MULTIPLE DIMENSIONS IN THE UNITED KINGDOM.

ED LUCE, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> GREAT TO SEE YOU.

> >> WELL, NOW WHILE THE WORLD'S ATTENTION IS FOCUSED ON THE PROSPECT OF RENEWED WAR IN IRAN AND ISRAEL'S ONGOING ATTACKS IN LEBANON, DESPITE A CEASEFIRE, GAZA IS STILL IN RUINS.

AND AS PEOPLE THERE ATTEMPT TO PICK UP THE PIECES OF THEIR LIVES, U. S. SECRETARY OF STATE MARCO RUBIO SAYS THERE HAVE BEEN SOME PROMISING SIGNS REGARDING THE PUSH FOR HAMAS TO DEMILITARIZE.

MEANTIME, IN THE WEST BANK, ISRAELI SETTLER ATTACKS ARE SURGING, WITH PALESTINIANS BEING SUBJECTED TO A CAMPAIGN OF FEAR AND VIOLENCE, INCLUDING REPORTS OF SEXUAL ASSAULTS, SMASHED WATER PIPES, DESTROYED FARMS, AND FORCED DISPLACEMENT TO NAME JUST A HANDFUL OF THE ISSUES THAT PALESTINIANS THERE ARE EXPERIENCING.

THE MOST RECENT EXAMPLE OF PHYSICAL INTIMIDATION, SETTLERS SETTING UP A RAZOR WIRE NEAR A VILLAGE, BLOCKING PALESTINIAN CHILDREN FROM GOING TO SCHOOL.

NOW STUDENTS AS YOUNG AS 5 ARE PROTESTING, CALLING ON SETTLERS AND ISRAELI SOLDIERS TO REOPEN THE ROAD.

ABIR SALMAN HAS THIS REPORT.

>> Reporter: THESE PALESTINIAN CHILDREN HAVE BEEN DEMONSTRATING EVERY DAY FOR TWO WEEKS.

ALL THEY WANT TO DO IS GO TO SCHOOL.

BUT RAZOR WIRE IS BLOCKING THEIR WAY, ROLLED OUT BY ISRAELI SETTLERS FROM A NEARBY SETTLEMENT IN A DELIBERATE MOVE TO STOP THEM.

11-YEAR-OLD HUDA STRUGGLES TO HOLD BACK TEARS.

>> Reporter: SOME OF THE KIDS HERE IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK ARE AS YOUNG AS 5 YEARS OLD, ALONG WITH THEIR BOOKS AND THEIR BACKPACKS, THEY CARRY SIGNS AND HOLD THEM UP SO SETTLERS CAN SEE THEM AS SOLDIERS LOOK ON AT THE TOP OF THE HILL.

WHEN SETTLERS INITIALLY BLOCKED THE ROAD, VIDEO SHARED WITH CNN SHOWED SOLDIERS WITH WHAT APPEARED TO BE TEAR GAS BLOWING AROUND THEM.

THE CHILDREN SCREAM AND RUN AWAY.

THIS STRIKING IMAGE WAS WIDELY SHARED ONLINE, EVEN CAPTURING THE ATTENTION OF NBA STAR KYRIE IRVING, WHO MADE IT HIS PROFILE PICTURE.

IT IS NOT UNIQUE.

THE U. N. SAYS THERE ARE 12 MORE PALESTINIAN COMMUNITIES IN THIS SMALL CORNER OF THE WEST BANK FACING IMMINENT THREAT OF FORCEFUL TRANSFER.

THAT'S 500 CHILDREN AND THEIR FAMILIES.

ISRAEL MAY REJECT THE DESCRIPTION, BUT A LOCAL LEADER IS CLEAR IN HOW HE SEES THINGS.

>> OUR CONDITION MOSTLY BASED ON APARTHEID SYSTEM WHICH GIVE ALL THE PRIVILEGES TO THE SETTLERS AND PREVENT PALESTINIANS HAVE ANY KIND OF RIGHT, EVEN RIGHT TO EDUCATION AND ACCESS THEIR SCHOOL SAFELY.

ALL THE KIDS IN PALESTINIAN SUFFER.

THEY JUST WANT TO LIVE THEIR LIFE NORMALLY, BUT THEY PAY THE PRICE.

>> HUMILIATING.

THAT IS HOW OUR NEXT GUEST DESCRIBES THE CONDITIONS THAT HER HUSBAND LIVED THROUGH AT AN AMERICAN HOSPITAL EMERGENCY ROOM WHILE HE BATTLED THE LATE STAGES OF ESOPHAGEAL CANCER.

AT A TIME WHEN OVER A QUARTER OF PATIENTS WAITING MORE THAN FOUR HOURS FOR A BED, AND A WORST CASE SCENARIO, A PATIENT COULD SPEND DAYS IN THE HALLWAY AWAITING CARE.

AUTHOR AND FORMER ER DOCTOR ELISABETH ROSENTHAL DESCRIBES THE GROWING EMERGENCY ROOM BOARDING CRISIS IN A NEW ARTICLE FOR THE "ATLANTIC. "

SHE JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS.

>> BIANA, THANKS.

DR.

ELISABETH ROSENTHAL, THIS FOR JOINING.

YOU HAD A PIECE TITLED A BARBARIC PROBLEM IN AMERICAN HOSPITALS IS ONLY GETTING BIGGER.

WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?

>> THE PROBLEM IS PEOPLE WHO ARE ADMITTED TO THE HOSPITAL, BUT THERE ARE NO BEDS AVAILABLE.

SO THEY END UP LYING IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM IN A HALLWAY, OR ACTUALLY OUT OF THE EMERGENCY ROOM IN A HALLWAY, OR IN AN ER OVERFLOW AREA WHERE IT'S NOT CLEAR WHO'S RESPONSIBLE FOR THEM.

AND YOU JUST DON'T HAVE THE NORMAL CARE THAT AN IN-PATIENT NEEDS.

AND EVERYONE KNOWS WHO'S CARED FOR AN OLDER RELATIVE OR A SICK RELATIVE THAT THIS HAPPENS.

AND EVERYONE IS FRUSTRATED BY IT.

BUT AS ONE OF THE ER DOCTORS SAID TO ME, IT'S A PROBLEM THAT NOBODY --EVERYBODY KNOWS ABOUT, BUT NOBODY CARES ENOUGH TO FIX, WHICH I THINK IS THE TRAGEDY.

>> YEAH.

YOU WROTE ABOUT THIS IN A VERY PERSONAL WAY TOO.

YOU WERE WRITING ABOUT YOUR HUSBAND WHO WAS DYING OF ESOPHAGEAL CANCER AT THE TIME.

AND YOU WRITE, "AFTER WE WENT TO AN EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT NEAR OUR HOME IN NEW YORK CITY, HE LAY TRAPPED ON A HARD STRETCHER WITH ITS RAILS UP FOR MORE THAN 36 HOURS.

AMID THE ALARMS AND CALLS FOR THE CODE TEAM WITHOUT ANY CLUES OF WHETHER IT WAS DAY OR NIGHT AND WITH ACCESS ONLY TO THE FEW TOILETS SHARED BY THE DOZENS OF PATIENTS AND VISITORS IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM.

TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT I THINK PEOPLE FORGET THAT THE IMPACT THAT THE SETTING ITSELF HAVE.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING AND THE LIGHTS ARE THE SAME, AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHO IS COMING IN TO DO WHAT.

>> IT'S A SCARY PLACE.

IT'S A NOISY PLACE.

IT'S --I CALLED IT CACAPHONOUS.

THERE ARE TWO OR THREE BATHROOMS FOR EVERYONE.

I THINK IN THAT PARTICULAR ADMISSION, WHERE ANDRE SAT IN THE ER FOR A COUPLE OF DAYS, HE HAD ALTERED MENTAL STATUS.

IF YOU HAVE --WHO WOULDN'T HAVE ALTERED MENTAL STATUS BY THE END OF THOSE TWO DAYS, YOU KNOW.

HE THOUGHT I WAS THE -- THE DOCTORS WERE OUT TO GET HIM LIKE CIA PEOPLE OR SOMETHING.

>> OH, NO.

>> AND I WAS THEIR PAID CONSPIRATOR TRYING TO KEEP HIM THERE.

SO WHAT HAPPENED OVER THE COURSE OF HIS ILLNESS, AND HE DIDN'T HAVE MANY ER BOARDING STAYS, WAS BECAUSE A LOT OF TIMES WHEN HE SHOULD HAVE GONE TO THE EMERGENCY ROOM, HE REFUSED.

HE SAID I'M NOT GOING THERE BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO ME.

I'M GOING TO SIT IN THE HALLWAY.

IT'S HUMILIATING.

>> YEAH.

>> THE STRETCHER IS NOT A BED.

YOU KNOW, RAILS UP IS RAILS UP.

THERE ARE MONITORS.

THERE ARE NOISES.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHO YOUR NEIGHBOR.

YOU'RE IN A HALLWAY, YOU KNOW.

>> YEAH.

>> SO IT'S HUMILIATING AS WELL AS NOT GOOD CARE.

>> UNFORTUNATELY, YOUR HUSBAND'S CARE IS NOT THE EXCEPTION.

ACCORDING TO A STUDY PUBLISHED IN HEALTH AFFAIRS BACK IN 2025, IT LOOKED AT ACROSS 46 MILLION EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT VISITS AND 15,000 HOSPITALIZATIONS, THIS IS BETWEEN THE YEARS 2017 AND 2024, DURING NONPEAK MONTHS, SO NOT EVEN THE MONTHS WHERE IT'S WORSE, MORE THAN 25% OF THE ADMITTED PATIENTS WAITED FOR HOURS OR MORE FOR A BED.

AND DURING WINTER MONTHS, IT WAS EVEN HIGHER.

SO WHY ARE PATIENTS WAITING FOR A BED FOR SO LONG?

WHY DO WE SEE HUMAN BEINGS IN THE HALLWAYS OF HOSPITALS NEXT TO EMERGENCY DEPARTMENTS?

>> WELL, I THINK THE THING IS THAT FOUR-HOUR RULE.

MORE THAN FOUR HOURS.

ANY EMERGENCY ROOM PHYSICIAN OR NURSE WILL SAY THAT'S A JOKE.

EVERYONE WAITS MORE THAN FOUR HOURS.

YOU'RE LUCKY IF IT'S, YOU KNOW, LESS THAN TWO DAYS.

>> YEAH.

>> I MEAN, WE'RE TALKING DAYS AND NIGHTS FOR MANY PEOPLE.

AND IT'S KIND OF --IT'S A SYSTEM PROBLEM.

IT'S THE WAY WE FINANCE CARE IN AMERICA.

AND THE WAY HOSPITALS EVEN NOT FOR PROFIT HOSPITALS THINK ABOUT CARE.

AND IT'S OUR LACK OF RESOURCES FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE OLDER, SICKER, OR AT THE END OF LIFE.

SO IT'S A MULTIDIMENSIONAL PROBLEM.

YOU KNOW, WHEN I WAS AN ER PHYSICIAN FOR SEVEN OR EIGHT YEARS BEFORE I BECAME A CONVERT TO JOURNALISM, AND I WORKED IN A VERY BUSY NEW YORK CITY EMERGENCY ROOM.

THERE WERE RARELY PEOPLE WHO BOARDED.

BUT THEN THE HOSPITAL ALWAYS HAD SOME BEDS OPEN TO MOVE PEOPLE UPSTAIRS.

IF THERE WAS NOT SPACE IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM, WE COULD GO ON DIVERSION.

WE WOULD CANCEL ELECTIVE ADMISSIONS 23 THERE WAS NO ROOM.

NOW HOSPITALS RUN LIKE AIRLINES, YOU KNOW.

THEY WANT EVERY BED FULL ALL THE TIME BECAUSE EMPTY BED IS A MONEY --IF YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT MEDICINE AS A BUSINESS, AN EMPTY BED, LIKE YOU'RE PAYING FOR NURSES, YOU'RE PAYING FOR THE HEATING, THE COOLING.

>> YEAH.

>> AND YOU'RE NOT GETTING ANY REVENUE BACK.

AND MORE THAN THAT, I THINK YOU WANT THOSE BEDS FILLED WITH REVENUE PRODUCING PATIENTS.

>> EXPLAIN THAT.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, WE PRIORITIZE PROCEDURES AND HEALTH CARE REIMBURSEMENT.

SO IF YOU HAVE SOMEONE COMING IN FOR A HIP REPLACEMENT OR, YOU KNOW, A VALVE REPLACEMENT, OR A CARDIAC PROCEDURE, THAT'S BIG BUCKS.

IF YOU HAVE SOMEONE WHO'S OLDER OR SICK OR WHO JUST NEEDS CARE, NEEDS THEIR ANTIBIOTICS ADMINISTERED, YOU KNOW, NEEDS TO BE TURNED AT NIGHT SO THEY DON'T GET BED SORES, THEY'RE NOT PRODUCING REVENUE.

THEY'RE JUST THERE.

AND THE SECONDARY PROBLEM, JUST SO I DON'T SAY OH, IT'S THE HOSPITAL'S FAULT ENTIRELY.

YES, THEY OPERATE ON A BUSINESS MODEL.

SO, YES, IT'S PARTLY THEIR FAULT.

THEY WANT REVENUE, REVENUE, REVENUE.

BUT ALSO THE PROBLEM IS THEY KNOW THAT IF ONE OF THOSE PATIENTS GOES TO A BED, WE HAVE AN EXTREME SHORTAGE OF REHAB BEDS AND LONG-TERM CARE BEDS AND HOSPICE BEDS.

SO THAT PERSON WILL MOST LIKELY SIT THERE IN THAT BED AND NOT MOVE FOR DAYS, FOR WEEKS, IT COULD BE EVEN LONGER, YOU KNOW.

AND THAT'S ALSO NOT GOOD.

>> HOW MUCH OF THIS IS A DEMOGRAPHIC SHIFT AS WELL?

I MEAN, WE ARE CONSCIOUS OF THIS SORT OF IDEA THE SILVER TSUNAMI, THE RETIRED POPULATION OF BOOMERS NOW.

OVER THE NEXT 15, 20 YEARS, THE POPULATION OF RETIREES IS GOING TO GO UP ALMOST 50%.

SO WHAT HAPPENS WHEN MORE PEOPLE HAVE THESE NEEDS, AND THEY NEED PLACES IN HOSPITALS, OR AFTER HOSPITALS?

>> AS A NATION, WE HAVE TO FIGURE THAT OUT.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, SINCE THE PANDEMIC, HOSPITAL BEDS ARE DOWN BY 20% BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, A PART OF IT IS RATIONAL.

SO MUCH MORE CAN BE DONE AS AN OUTPATIENT.

WE DON'T NEED THESE BEDS.

BUT THE COUNTERVAILING FACT IS, YOU KNOW, IT'S AN OLDER, SICKER POPULATION WHO NEEDS MORE HOSPITALIZATION.

NOW WHETHER IN THE GOOD OLD DAYS WHEN FINANCE WASN'T KING IN HEALTH CARE, HOSPITALS OFTEN HAD TRANSITION UNITS WHERE PEOPLE WHO WEREN'T QUITE READY TO GO HOME BUT DIDN'T NEED FULL HOSPITAL CARE WOULD GO.

BUT THOSE ARE MONEY LOSERS.

LIKE WE DIDN'T PAY FOR THAT.

THERE WAS NO FINANCIAL MODEL.

AND I THINK WHETHER IT'S IN HOSPITAL OR OUT OF HOSPITAL, WE JUST HAVE TO FIGURE OUT BETTER WAYS.

AND HEY, I'M INVESTED IN THIS BECAUSE I'M GOING TO BE ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE LIKELY WHO NEEDS THAT KIND OF SYSTEM.

BOY, WHEN MY HUSBAND WAS DYING, I SAW JUST HOW TERRIBLE IT IS FROM THE PATIENT PERSPECTIVE.

>> THIS WAS FROM THE HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES ABOUT EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT BOARDING, EXACTLY WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

THIS IS THE END OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

IT SAID, QUOTE, EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT BOARDING IS A PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS IN THE UNITED STATES.

IT CONCLUDED THAT "PATIENTS WHO ARE SICK ENOUGH TO REQUIRE IN-PATIENT CARE CAN WAIT IN THE ED FOR HOURS, DAYS, EVEN WEEKS.

BOARDING INCREASED MORTALITY, MELLER ROARS, PROLONGED HOSPITAL STAYS, AND GREATER DISSATISFACTION WITH CARE. "

I MEAN THAT SEEMS LIKE THE BAT SIGNAL, THE FIRE ALARM, THE RED SIREN, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT.

AND WHY DID NOTHING HAPPEN AFTER THIS LEVEL OF URGENCY IS EXPRESSED BY HHS?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, YOU COULD BLAME THE CHANGE OF ADMINISTRATIONS, BUT I DON'T KNOW IF THAT --WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF IT WAS THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION CONTINUING?

THE PANEL WOULD HAVE BEEN CONVENED.

IT'S A HARD PROBLEM TO SOLVE IS PART OF THE PROBLEM, RIGHT.

ONE THING THAT IS HAPPENING THAT WAS SUGGESTED BY THAT REPORT IS STARTING IN --THERE'S A NEW RULE THAT CAME OUT OF CMS THAT TAKES EFFECT THIS YEAR, BUT ACTUALLY, IT DOESN'T REALLY REQUIRE THE HOSPITALS TO DO ANYTHING UNTIL NEXT YEAR.

AS OF 2027, THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO REPORT ER BOARDING TIMES.

IT'S OPTIONAL.

THEY CAN'T 2027.

IN 2028, IT BECOMES REQUIRED.

AND THEN IN 2030, IT'S --THERE IS AN IDEA THAT IT SOMEHOW SHOULD AFFECT MEDICARE PAYMENTS.

THERE SHOULD BE PENALTIES FOR EXCESSIVE BOARDING TIME.

NOW WILL THAT REALLY HELP?

I MEAN, IT'S A START.

WE'LL KNOW MORE ABOUT THE DEPTH AND BREADTH OF THE PROBLEM.

BUT IT'S YEARS AWAY, RIGHT.

>> TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE MONEY FACTOR HERE.

I THINK ALMOST 500, 488 HOSPITALS IN THE UNITED STATES ARE NOW OWNED BY DIFFERENT PRIVATE EQUITY FIRMS.

IS THERE A FINANCIAL PROFIT SORT OF PRESSURE HERE AS THESE HOSPITALS GET TAKEN OVER AT THE EXPENSE OF PATIENT CARE OR STAFFING?

>> WELL, OF COURSE THE --YOU KNOW, THE INVASION OF PRIVATE EQUITY INTO HEALTH CARE IS TO MY MIND NOT A GOOD THING.

THE GOAL OF PRIVATE EQUITY IS TO MAKE SOMETHING MORE EFFICIENT AND THEN TO RESELL IT AND MAKE A PROFIT, WHICH, YOU KNOW, HOSPITALS HAVE BEEN PUSHING EFFICIENCY FOR YEARS ON THEIR OWN.

BUT THIS HAS HAPPENED TO NOT-FOR-PROFIT HOSPITALS TOO.

MOST OF THE BIG TEACHING HOSPITALS ARE NOT FOR PROFIT, AND THEY ALL HAVE HUGE BOARDING PROBLEMS.

THEY WORK ON A KIND OF - - THEY DON'T CALL IT PROFIT, BUT THEY THINK A LOT ABOUT MONEY IN THE ADMINISTRATORS ARE CONSTANTLY THINKING ABOUT ARE WE MAKING MONEY, ARE WE LOSING MONEY.

THEY HAVE HUGE OVERHEAD, MUCH OF WHICH IS MEDICAL.

BUT THEN THE CEOs OF THESE HOSPITALS GETTING PAY PACKAGES THAT ARE OFTEN BETWEEN $5 MILLION AND $10 MILLION.

SO, YOU KNOW, THEY KIND OF ACT LIKE BUSINESSES EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE NOT FOR PROFIT, AND THEY CALL THEIR PROFIT SURPLUS RATHER THAN PROFIT.

>> YOU WROTE A BOOK SEVERAL YEARS AGO "AN AMERICAN SICKNESS: HOW AMERICAN HEALTH CARE BECAME BIG BUSINESS AND HOW YOU CAN TAKE IT BACK. "

THINGS HAVEN'T ALL BEEN FIXED, RIGHT, SINCE YOU WROTE SOME OF THESE PROBLEMS.

BUT I GUESS THE SECOND PART OF THE TITLE, HOW CAN WE TAKE IT BACK?

>> HOW WE CAN TAKE IT BACK FOR OURSELVES INDIVIDUALLY IS, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE LOT OF THINGS YOU CAN DO.

YOU KNOW, YOU CAN MAKE MORE OF A FUSS WHEN YOU LOOK AT THOSE EXPLANATION OF BENEFIT STATEMENTS.

YOU CAN FIGHT BILLS.

VERY FEW INSURANCE DENIALS GET APPEALED BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO IT OR CAN'T BE BOTHERED.

NOT CAN'T BE BOTHERED.

IT'S TOO COMPLICATED.

HOSPITALS OFFER PROGRAMS THAT MAY HELP PEOPLE WHO NEED DISCHARGE FIND A HOSPICE OR, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN GET YOUR LABS DRAWN AT IN-NETWORK LABS IN SOME CITIES LIKE IN NEW YORK IT'S HARD TO FIND A PRIMARY CARE DOCTOR.

EVERYONE NEEDS A PRIMARY CARE DOCTOR, BECAUSE THAT WAY YOU HAVE AN ADVOCATE WITHIN THE SYSTEM.

BUT I THINK GLOBALLY, WHAT WE CAN DO IS, YOU KNOW, IN POLAND THAT WE DO A KFF.

VOTERS SAY HEALTH CARE AND HEALTH CARE COSTS ARE ONE OF THEIR MAJOR PRIORITIES, BUT PEOPLE DON'T VOTE THEIR HEALTH CARE AND POLITICIANS HAVEN'T REALLY OFFERED MUCH, RIGHT, LIKE WHAT IS IN 2016, THE DEMOCRATS WERE TALKING ABOUT LOWERING THE MEDICARE AGE PROGRESSIVELY.

THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT A PUBLIC OPTION, WHICH IS GOVERNMENT-PROVIDED INSURANCE PLAN THAT YOU COULD CHOOSE IF YOU DIDN'T LIKE THE COMMERCIAL PLANS ON OFFER.

YOU KNOW, THERE WERE ENHANCED SUBSIDIES WHICH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION LET EXPIRE.

SO I'M ALWAYS SURPRISED THAT WE KNOW EVERYONE IS ANGRY ABOUT HEALTH CARE.

EVERYONE IS ANGRY ABOUT EMERGENCY ROOM BOARDING.

TO MY MIND, YOU KNOW, POLITICIANS, GOD, IT'S SUCH A WINNING ISSUE.

PEOPLE TALK ABOUT GAS PRICES AND MORTGAGE RATES.

I'M LIKE GUYS, YEAH, THAT'S BAD THAT THERE'S THAT KIND OF INFLATION, BUT WHAT'S STEALING MONEY FROM YOUR POCKETBOOK AND KEEPING YOU SICKER IS THE WAY OUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IS TREATING YOU.

SO LET'S VOTE FOR THAT AND ASK MORE POLITICIANS TO ADDRESS THAT.

>> IN THE ARTICLE ON NEAR THE END OF HIS LIFE, YOU WENT TO THE ER FOR THE LAST TIME, AND YOU WRITE, QUOTE, I DID WHAT I PROMISED I'D NEVER DO.

I CALLED A DOCTOR FRIEND WHO CALLED THE HOSPITAL'S VIP OFFICE.

LY AND REJ WAS WHISKED TO A PRIVATE HOSPITAL ROOM, WITH A BED THAT HE COULD ADJUST TO KEEP HIS HEAD ELEVATED, A TRAY HE COULD EAT ON AND A NURSE BY HIS SIDE.

WHY DID YOU FINALLY DO THIS, AND WHAT DID THAT MOMENT TEACH YOU?

>> WELL, HE WAS IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM ON A STRETCHER FOR A FEW DAYS, AND HE WAS MISERABLE, YOU KNOW.

THE FIRST THING HE ASKED WHEN HE GOT TO THE EMERGENCY ROOM THAT NIGHT WAS DID YOU BRING MY SHOES.

HE WAS SO SICK, AND ALL HE WANTED TO DO WAS LEAVE.

AND I COULDN'T.

HE WAS TOO SICK TO HAVE HIM AT HOME.

AND WE HADN'T BEEN ABLE TO ARRANGE HOSPICE YET.

SO, YOU KNOW, I KNEW HE WAS DYING IN THAT ADMISSION LIKELY, AND I WAS NOT GO TO LET HIM DIE SITTING ON A STRETCHER WITH RAILS UP IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM WITH HIS FEET HANGING OFF, YOU KNOW.

IT WAS JUST TOO -- THE OPPOSITE OF A BEAUTIFUL, DIGNIFIED DEATH.

AND DEATH IS NEVER --AS I'VE SEEN IT, YOU KNOW, A WONDERFUL EXPERIENCE, BUT IT WAS A TERRIBLE WAY TO GO.

AND I KNEW BECAUSE I PRACTICED IN HOSPITALS THAT THERE WERE THESE VIP OFFICES.

AND I KNEW BECAUSE I KNEW THAT THE SYSTEM PRETTY WELL THAT I COULD CALL SOMEONE TO MAKE THAT WORK FOR US.

BUT, YOU KNOW, WRITING ABOUT HEALTH POLICY FOR MY ENTIRE LIFE, IT WAS NOT SOMETHING I WANTED TO USE.

I WANT THIS TO WORK FOR EVERYONE, YOU KNOW, NOT JUST CALLING A VIP OFFICE.

BUT WHEN YOUR HUSBAND'S DYING, YOU DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO FOR YOUR LOVED ONE.

>> AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST AND PHYSICIAN DR.

ELISABETH ROSENTHAL, THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME AND LETTING ME TALK ABOUT THIS IMPORTANT ISSUE.

> >> AND FINALLY, THE MISSION TO SAVE TIMMY.

THE HUMPBACK WHALE THAT BECAME STRANDED OFF THE COAST OF GERMANY OVER A MONTH AGO HAS FINALLY BEEN TRANSPORTED FURTHER AWAY FOR SHALLOW WATERS TOWARDS THE NORTH SEA.

DESPITE PREVIOUS FAILED OPERATIONS, THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ACROSS THE WORLD LAUNCHED APPEALS ON SOCIAL MEDIA TO SAVE THE CREATURE.

THESE EFFORTS CAUGHT THE ATTENTION OF TWO GERMAN MILLIONAIRES WHO HAVE FULLY FUNDED THE PLAN TO GET TIMMY HOME.

> >> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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