Good evening and welcome to Doctors on Call.

I'm Mary Mohouse, psychotherapist at Insight Counseling Duth where I specialize in anxiety and in providing support to individuals affected by cancer and their loved ones.

I'm your host for our episode tonight on sports psychology.

The success of this program is very dependent on you, the viewer.

So, please call in your questions or send them in to our email address askpbsnorth.org.

Our panelists this evening include Dr.

Dave Plud, Arrowhead Psychological Clinic, Ashley Rangdorf, Creative Solution Counseling for Kids, and Corey Kemp, um, educator and coach.

Our phone volunteers are standing by to answer your calls.

And now on to tonight's program on sports psychology.

So excited to have all of you guys here.

What a great um panel we have.

Um so Dave, if you could just start out by telling us um where you work and a little bit about what you do with this with sports psychology in your practice in your practice.

Yeah, thanks and thanks for having me.

Um in terms of sports psych, uh I've been working with it over the past 30 years.

I've really cut my teeth working with uh some D1 players in my mentoring earlier years.

Um, I've worked with pro players over the years, worked with a lot of youth sports teams.

Um, really really rewarding area to work with.

A lot of motivated kids and families.

Um, and there's a lot of really neat things that you can do and and skills, uh, mental toughness and and whatnot.

It's the So, anyway, it's uh it's a wonderful area to work.

I, um, I do couples counseling and family therapy amongst other things at Arrowhead, but uh, but I do enjoy doing a lot of sports psych.

Wonderful.

Great.

Yeah.

Ashley, tell us a little bit about where you work and and in and your practice.

Yeah.

Um, so I work at Creative Solutions Counseling for Kids up in Hibbing.

Um, and I work primarily with adolescence and young adults that have experienced trauma.

Um, but also, you know, mood disorders, anxiety disorders, just everyday stressors.

It's hard to be a kid now.

Um and yeah, so I work in supporting families and children, adolescence in obviously a lot of them are involved in sports and so um so yeah, working on kind of the mental aspect of it, but also last year I had the wonderful experience of working with um one of our local sports teams um and really talking about the culture of that team and trying to support them to develop better relationship ships with each other and um yeah, great.

And which leads us right into Corey.

So, tell us a little bit about your background and and um and what you're doing.

Yeah.

Um I was the head baseball coach at St.

Scholastica from 2009 to 2019.

Okay.

Uh so spent a lot of time working with college athletes.

Um I stepped away from that to go into the classroom and be a fifth grade teacher and also to coach my sons and their friends.

Uh they're now 10 and 13.

Um, so I've coached, you know, upwards of 22 year olds down to five and six year olds.

Wow.

Do you have a favorite age to coach?

You know, I like to get them when they're young and that kind of goes into the culture thing.

You can teach them a lot when they're little that if you instill it into them then it's going to help as they get older because that's when it gets really challenging.

Yeah, it gets really Yeah, I'm I'm sure it is.

Yeah, those 5-year-olds are are cute.

So, we'll go ahead and just um start on um some questions.

So, Dave, we'll start with you.

What role does mental health play in athletic performance?

Yeah, quite a bit.

Um, and it's different for everybody because everybody comes into their athleticism differently.

Everybody's got a different kind of background emotionally.

Um, and I I think the biggie is uh probably one of the biggest things, in fact, it was kind of fun.

I reached out to uh the sports psychologist for the Vikings today and uh Dr.

Justin Anderson and it's really similar to what we're working with up north.

Um, some of the biggest things, self-doubt, fear of failure.

Really, those are the things that are making kids lock up the most.

They can be gifted.

Yeah.

And at practice, you know, they can be just killing it.

Uh, you get them to some competitive events and they stiffen up.

Yeah.

Okay.

Because they they're too their focus is on the fear of making a mistake.

And so, the art is really in helping because self-doubt's going to creep in and especially as the performance pressure rises, the higher you get up.

Yeah.

And and that's a big load for kids to carry and adults as well.

Um and so the big trick is to be able to know that it's normal to have the self-doubt, but what else can you shift your focus to?

And how can you manage that anxiety and stress because it's going to be there.

It's going to be there.

It's going to be there and that's that's that's it's a good thing because it's motivating and there's a tipping point.

Yes.

For when it's when it's helpful and hurtful to try and find that sweet spot for Yeah.

Very true.

those those high achieving athletes.

Okay, great.

Um Ashley, how can we make youth sports more about growth and fun and less about pressure to win?

Oh, I know.

Great question.

You know, I I'm a parent to a nine-year-old and a six-year-old, and I've had a lot of conversations with parents and families recently about the fact that it seems like sports is no longer even about having fun.

um you know, you feel like you're almost late to the game if you're starting your kiddo in sports in, you know, first grade instead of in preschool.

Um and so I think that, you know, going back to the culture thing, I think so much of it has to do with remembering why we all played sports when we were younger and the fact that yeah, it it should just be about fun.

And I think that that's a mistake that, you know, a lot of parents, you know, well-intentioned but but make is, you know, thinking that their kid is going to be the next Wayne Gretzky.

And we have to just keep ourselves grounded in the fact that again, why are we doing this?

And really, it comes down to relationships and it comes down to having fun because most of us aren't going to pray play professionally.

No.

Exactly.

And most of the and the kids and um kind of g Yeah.

Getting into that a little bit.

Sometimes it's the it's the ticket to college and it's the ticket to higher education and so then there's a kind of a an academic piece and a kind of a pressure for for for that too.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The collective inertia to start early even to make the high school team to belong to a high school team even can start us pretty young.

Can Yeah.

Yeah.

and and parents are all in and and you know, you get it and then other people are starting early and it just gets rolling.

Yeah, exactly.

It's bananas.

There's camps year round and um some great athletes come out of it, but it's a lot of pressure.

It's a lot of busyness.

Yeah.

You know, it it is.

Um All right, Corey, how does team culture affect mental health?

So, you've been right.

you've been the coach of teams of on a on a collegiate level and now with the with the cute little kids, but tell me about how, you know, you you kind of created culture and and how important that is.

A lot of it starts with the people you surround yourself with.

So, in college, I had the luxury of recruiting student athletes that I felt would best fit our culture.

Yeah.

Um I we could find the leaders, you know, when they were junior juniors and seniors, so we kind of knew who we were bringing in.

um we would find some very skilled uh high school baseball players that we would not recruit because we didn't feel they had the character and the values that we really wanted.

Um we'd rather take a kid who was a hard worker, maybe not the super talented kid, but just came from a good family um and just had those good character skills and value and um valued leadership and loyalty.

Yeah.

Um with the youth kids, you kind of have to teach them that.

Yeah.

Right.

Um, so as a father, as parents, I think they also have a really big obligation to help with that team culture.

Yeah.

And trust the coaches and what they're teaching their players, whether it's 5 years old or 13 years old.

Um, because the coaches know where they want to go.

They have the vision.

Um, and parents often don't always support that when they leave the field or they leave the hockey rink.

So, there's a lot of buying that has to happen from parents as well that trust your coach, what they're teaching you.

These skills matter.

And even as young kids, you're teaching them life skills.

Yeah.

Do you think that's like one of the most important things parents can do is support support what the coaches said?

Yeah.

Coach is saying for sure.

Right.

Because if they're getting that message on why body language is important and why you can't hang your head because all the negative effects that has um and a parent doesn't support that as well and won't get on their kid about, hey, your body language has to be better.

It was pretty bad tonight.

If it's just a coach telling them when they leave the field, I'm moving on.

my parents aren't gonna say anything to me.

So, just supporting what the coach is trying to develop in their players.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, so so important.

And the reason there's a reason the coach is the coach, right?

There's there's a reason that that expertise is there.

So, it's really a fine line, too, right?

Because I think the parents supporting the coach is just amazing and getting behind and getting in into that culture.

But at the same time, if the parents on the way home from practice or a game are on their child or young adult about their performance, right, it it's just a very stress inducing or shame based thing and it makes it a little bit less fun.

So, if you can let the coaches do that part of the coaching, well, and being a coach and a dad.

Yeah.

Um, it happened for the first time.

My son, 13-year-old, is playing hockey here locally, and on the way home the other day, I didn't say anything about hockey.

Yeah.

Didn't ask him how it went and we pulled in the driveway and he said, "Aren't you going to ask him about practice?

You normally do."

I said, "Man, I didn't really care.

I'm just happy to be home with you.

Let's go and watch the baseball playoff game, you know."

So, it's hard to do.

It's hard for me to pivot that way with kids as athletes, too.

Yeah.

To kind of back off.

My wife helped a little bit.

David, you got to back off a little bit.

Back off.

Yeah.

We never Yeah.

We We didn't have that problem at our at our house.

Um but al along with that when does striving for excellence become unhealthy perfectionism and this is I think so this is something that I would see in my office although I don't do sports psychology I have athletes who are striving perfection in grades and then per you know isn't the goal to to be perfect but when does that kind of um when does that kind of become that unhealthy perfectionism yeah I think when it's interfering with performance the whole idea behind in sport psychology is to build the mental toughness and the skills to kind of stay in that zone where you're at your peak performance.

Um, and if you're being too hard on yourself and you're hanging your head because something was subpar, there was a little mistake and you're dragging a little bit and you can't shake it, you know, I call it the bounty maneuver, you know, where be the quicker picker upper, just, you know, get through it.

Um, and I but I think it's when it starts to impact performance negatively and I think it's it has a lot to do with goals.

I think it has a lot to do with selft talk um energy management all that stuff impacts that and those are big modules in the sports psych world.

Yeah.

Abs.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

You know I would say too that I think perfectionism is it's other focused versus healthy striving is me focused.

I'm doing it for me versus I'm doing it for others to be accepted or included.

Um, and and that's when it really gets in the way, I think, of things is because as soon as you make a mistake, all of a sudden the ground falls out from underneath you.

And all of a sudden, you're not worthy or good enough anymore just because you made a mistake.

Um, and we need to we need to build a culture of, you know, reminding people that, um, you know, your whole self-worth isn't based on one thing.

It's not based on your performance, but really an internal quality.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's just it's a thing that you do, but it's not it doesn't completely define you.

Yeah, two things with it.

I would say, you know, with focus, developing keywords for people whose perfectionism and high standards are are getting them in a tough place.

A lot of people I'm trying to say, okay, you got to just bring it out there and we know you're going to wing it, you're going to trust it, and there's going to be some mistakes in there, but just start bringing it again.

Yeah.

And and and let it play.

The other one, too, I think, is goal setting.

Oftenimes people have outcome goals.

Get a hat-tick.

go to state uh this type of thing.

We don't have control over those outcome goals, right?

We can control process goals and performance goals.

Put your energy into those.

So that would be like uh the process is I'm going to practice my free throws, you know, 50 a day, something like this, and and work on that.

And that's going to increase performance.

Maybe the goal is to sync 20 in a row.

So while you can't control outcome goals, if you focus on your process and performance goals, you increase the odds of achieving those outcome goals.

Yeah.

Great.

So great.

Thank you, Ashley.

What differences do you see um in athletes um mental health in different age groups?

So you work with a couple of different age groups.

And I'm probably gonna ask and gonna follow that up with Yeah.

You know, I think age group, you know, obviously it makes a big big difference, but I feel like that that gap is almost closing a little bit, you know, because because there is so many expectations.

You know, little kids are, you know, they're able to it seems like let it go quicker.

Um, but yeah, it seems like there's such high expectations coming from, you know, especially in a in a small community.

I mean, it's, you know, when there's a sign that one of the hockey teams is possibly going to go to state, it's not just, you know, your parents and your teammates that are excited, but it's the whole community behind you.

Yeah.

Um, yeah.

So, I don't know if that really answered that.

No, it does.

Yeah.

If you could kind of talk to that, too, because you've definitely worked with um So, what differences do you see in athletes mental health in different age groups?

So, you know, you've got the little 5-year-olds just out there kind of having fun.

Although I've had my kids play 5-year-old soccer and there can still be tears, real, you know, real sad tears on the on the soccer field.

I think for, you know, 5 through 23, one thing that I talked to them about at their own level.

It's like putting things in perspective.

Yeah.

Like I know you just struck out, buddy, and that really really hurts, but we're going to go out there and play another inning, and you're going to get another bat.

It's okay.

Um, and then our college kids um, thinking about what's going on in their life.

Like, yes, maybe we didn't win today.

We did as much as we possibly could.

We couldn't control that, but we got a guy over there who just lost his grandma last weekend.

That's what's important right now, guys.

So, you can hit them at the higher level with some of those deeper things.

Um, that was one thing the Minnesota Gophers baseball team had.

They had a perspective board.

I never did this with with my team.

I probably should have, but they would bring them pictures and hang them in their locker room about people in their life that were going through something a whole lot more difficult than you trying to win a Big 10 championship.

You know, loved ones who are battling cancer in the hospital bed.

um a kid who was in a car accident with his car mangled who is now walking and it's a miracle.

So they could see those pictures and think, "Yeah, I didn't have a very good day, but my uncle is battling it right now."

So once again, the 5-year-old to the 22-year-old, a little bit of different message, but at the end of the day, it was just a perspective to help them let that performance go and focus on something more important in life.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

That's Yeah, that's that's great.

Um Dave, back to you.

Um, how do athletes navigate the emotional side of injury or retirement from sports?

Yeah, you know, this is really quite fascinating because I've worked with a lot of people um that were involved with college sports while they were in college sports and then in high school and then didn't go on to college in sports.

One of the most fascinating phenomenas is is how that team was such a big part of their identity and ego and self-esteem and belongingness.

Yes.

And so learning to nurture uh uh new relationships and or keep some of it fired up.

Maybe it's get ice time with some buddies or something like this uh to keep that going.

One of the other biggest things is the increase in stress and anxiety that I see because while they were competing at a really intense competitive level, they were exercising a lot.

They were really active.

So all of a sudden they've lost that stress reduction thing of the frequent activity and exercise plus maybe a peer group.

And so it can be a big challenging transition.

And so it kind of illuminates what they need to do.

Get back to working out, get out there and find a new crew or get reconnected with their old crew.

Yeah.

I talked to everyone about, you know, eat, sleep, exercise, and connection with others is kind of that's like kind of the basis and the foundational piece that you go.

And so, you know, you exercise is built into all these athletes lives, right?

And um and there's there's and connection with others.

Well, that goes away.

And then all of a sudden, if you were a hockey player or a soccer player or whatever, then kind of now what how I you know, one of my favorite t-shirts that I saw at Grandma's Marathon is my sport is your sport's punishment, right?

And so it's like, well, now you have to if you can't just go out on a soccer pitch or go play softball or whatever your sport is now, how do I how do I incorporate that?

That's not part of a team training.

Y, you know, Yeah.

It's fascinating to see the folks come in because they're like, "God, you know, I finished school and now I'm just down or I'm done with high school and now I'm just my depressive symptoms kicked in then and they're that they're not really connecting."

Yeah.

You know, that the group and the exercise is I'm like, "Well, boy, this is big change.

big change and injury too.

So you know that that that mid-season injury or the you know the season ending injuries and things like that could be Yeah.

And I think with the injuries in terms of the sport psych is going back to the goals.

You got to do a radical adjustment in your goals.

Okay.

You got to slow down.

You got to rest.

You got to eat well.

You've got to do your PT.

You've got to your goals just radically change because you're not going to be out on the sheet of the ice or out on the grid iron and and um that's all you can control.

That's all you can control.

Yeah.

It's a tough pill to swallow, but it's all you can do.

It's a tough Yep.

It's a tough one.

And your job is there to maybe then go support the team and and that's although although fun, not nearly as fun being on the bench as it is to be out there playing and getting that exercise and and connection.

Um, what can captains or coaches do to support Ashley um do to support teammates struggling with mental health?

You know, I think probably the the biggest thing that I would think of is is just normalizing mental health.

Um, you know, when I got the call last year um to work with, you know, one of our local teams, I was so impressed that a young male coach had reached out um and that there was, you know, a locker room full of boys that were receptive to me coming.

And I think that um you know they had been working on yoga and some mindfulness stuff before I had even gotten there.

And so I expected walking in there I had no idea what to expect.

Um you know I had asked some other of high school students from that you know from that school you know what I might be able to expect and the reactions that I got were quite interesting.

But when when I actually stepped into the locker room I was surprised how receptive they were.

And so, you know, I think it's really important to respect people's privacy when it comes to mental health.

So, if somebody is coming to you disclosing something, um, you know, you may not know exactly how to support them, but you can say, "I I don't know the answer to that."

Um, but I'd like to help figure it out.

And, um, you know, as a coach, just, you know, create, you know, building a relationship with, you know, bringing a therapist in.

Again, I think it's just normalizing, you know, the the process for people.

So maybe they would be more willing to go if um you know, if the coach values that.

If the coach values that.

Yeah.

Do you have anything to say to add on to that?

I think it's just, you know, being there for them and developing that trust because yes, you're the coach, but you're also a role model.

They're looking up to you.

Um, so when they know that I got your back and we can talk about this and do we need a day off, you know, whatever it may be, like we're going to do it for you.

We care about the person.

Yeah.

And who you are and the performance as an athlete.

That's a secondary piece.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Um, so how can schools and organizations help athletes prepare for life beyond sports?

Yeah.

You can speak to that because I think there's just so much.

Yeah.

Um, you know, even our baseball association 709, um, we'll have like our wreck teams and every kid's going to have a team, but then we'll have tournament teams and we'll score the kids, um, objectively on some different criteria, and we'll make a tournament team that will travel and play.

And every year there are some parents who are really disappointed that their kid didn't make one of those teams.

Um, yeah.

And we share with them, this is a good opportunity to talk to them about what they can improve upon and that, you know, life sometimes isn't fair.

But there's going to be a next year and we can work at this and you can get better.

Yeah.

Um so I think that's one small part of it.

Um Yeah.

Yeah.

The the parent piece is is tough.

Yeah.

But I mean just being a part of something bigger than yourself.

Yeah.

Um and being loyal to each other and you know having each other's backs and like the friendships that are going to set up as they go through for my youngest through his 8-year-old team to his high school team.

Like those relationships and that time you spend together.

Yeah.

Um, really sets you up for successful lives as as people.

So, as young, you know, as as parents with have young kids right now, and we'll we'll we'll do this backwards.

We'll start with you and then go backwards.

What do you feel like would it would be, you know, they're trying to figure out if if what sport or when to put kids in sports and what, you know, let's speak to the importance of sports for having your kid involved in a sport for for for children.

I mean, I think a lot of it is just the friend base.

Um, I think about my own kids and their friend groups that they have, and they change from year to year.

Um, some remain the same.

Like, those are their guys that they're going to the Bulldog hockey game with on Saturday night.

They're the guys that are going to the Sandlot to play in the summer together.

Um, so being a part of a team is is so important.

Um, I think about, you know, kids that might transfer schools.

Um and that can be a big challenge.

But if they're going to a school to be a part of even like in the music or the arts or something that they can attach themselves to to have that friend base Yeah.

Um is vitally important for their experience and their mental health for for that matter.

I mean that they have other people who are going through it with you.

Yeah.

Built in, you know, built-in exercise and connection for kids which is very kind of not, you know, it's that's doesn't always happen.

Um, another question, how do team-based activities positively impact mental health for participants?

So, kind of going along with that.

So, yeah.

Um, I think it has a huge impact.

I mean, I even think about myself.

I I played hockey for 10 years and, you know, I look back at my experience doing that and I, you know, there's not many games that I remember.

um if I if I do it was because we had worked together for something you know we had beat a team that we had never beat before or but the so much of you know so many of my memories were you know running around in the hotel and um you know dances that we had in the locker rooms and and those kinds of things.

So again I think so much of it has to do with relationships um and staying grounded in that is I I can't reiterate that enough.

Yeah, that's great.

I agree.

I think, you know, having belonging, being part of a group, yes, is huge.

Uh in the absence of that, kids are going to find other groups to belong to that might not be doing as many healthy things.

And it isn't just sports.

This can be a robotics club or the Lego club or drama and all that belonging I think is awesome.

It exposes you to new mentors like coach here.

It exposes you to diverse different people that come from different places.

Yeah.

and and different ways of thinking.

Absolutely.

So, I think it's really healthy that way uh in terms of learning to push yourself, learning to work through things that are challenges uh and the belongingness and the exposure to diversity and mentors, all that's really healthy.

Yeah, I think you know and today to have those um to losing is not a bad thing because it teaches that resilience piece, right?

And we don't have that.

kids kids are not as resilient because parents don't want to see their kids fail.

Um, and so they tend to rescue them from those uncomfortable feelings.

And I think that's part of the dynamic we see with coaches, at least that I hear is that, you know, parents get upset when their kid doesn't make, you know, the traveling baseball team.

Um, and they go after the coach.

Um, and so I think it's so important for parents to model um, healthy behavior um, as far as all that and and help them realize, help kiddos realize that, you know, that is that is not the end all be all.

Um, and again, you know, having realistic expectations.

Most kids are not going to, you know, make it into something, you know, big.

And so take cues from them.

If they don't want to play, don't make them play.

You know, they should do something different.

challenging but achievable goals.

Yeah.

Challenging and and not to celebrate if your kid doesn't make a a a team or a sport or or something, but also go, "Wow, this is a really great learning opportunity and this is really tough right now and we're going to get through it.

Grow through adversity.

Grow through adversity."

Absolutely.

Um I think another thing too is that we have to remember that not Thank you so much.

I know.

I know.

I We could talk about this all night.

I want to thank our panelists Corey Kemp, Ashley Ringstoorf, and Dr.

David Plud.

Please join Doctors on Call next week where Dr.

Chrisa Cody is joined by regional experts for a panel discussion about arthritis types, tendon and muscle problems, and prevention and treatments with a panel of experts from around the region.

Thank you for watching and for joining us for season 44 of Doctors on Call.

Good night.