good evening and welcome to doctors on call I'm Mary morouse psychotherapist at inside counseling duth where I specialize in working with children teens young adults and parents I am your host for our program tonight on couples and mental health the success of this program is very dependent on you the viewer so please call in your questions tonight or send them in ahead of time to our email address at ask pbsn north.org the telephone numbers can be found at the bottom of your screen our panelists this evening include Dr David plud Arrowhead Psychological Clinic Dina claya psychotherapist Insight Counseling Deluth and Michael kayba psychotherapist Insight Counseling duth our volunteers are standing by to answer the phones tonight and now on to tonight's program couples in mental health welcome everybody thank you so much for coming on this first time we've done couples and mental health on on this show so it's a it's a it's a Hot Topic it's not something that I uh personally do in my practice but I'm so excited to have you guys as experts in this in this field so um a couple of questions so we're going to kind of go over some um some basic questions and and Dave I'll I'll start with you um a lot of times you know you hear from from couples or I'll I'll hear it from from my individual clients who are often a part of a couple but why do we keep having the same fight over and over tell me a little bit about about that yeah well well first of all thanks for having me appreciate being here um this is always a treat to get out and talk amongst other colleagues and and professionals and and towards our community yeah absolutely um but yeah you know I like to think of it it's it's pretty complicated because there can be so many different Dynamics involved but it's kind of Perpetual problems can be the thing uh where someone is is making a statement they're making an Ask um and it's not getting better um sometimes it has to do with how they do it do they lead with criticism so it puts the other person on defense right uh what's their tone like is it starting harsh you never do this and it's because you're a and attack their character cuz you're a lazy right and so that's going to escalate and it's probably not going to get anywhere so starting soft making requests um trying to be relational uh and then on the listeners part if they're doing a good job um they're going to put some good effort into being generous and trying to make it happen but again it can be offputting enough uh the way you start the tone the presentation yeah so I I usually try to get people starting with requests try to move away from criticism yeah that helps a lot yeah and so that leads like that next question of how can we communicate without it turning into an argument so Dena if you could kind of speak to that because I think that's a lot of times people have this communication impath and um you know it's this is what you know if I just bring it up it's going to turn into an argument so we're just not even going to do it so how can what are some strategies to have the communication not turn into that right and one of the things that we do is kind of break down these it ends up kind of being patterns you know of of connection or disconnection and and like I think you said originally like have the same fight over and over again or something like that so I often will support couples in looking at kind of the process versus the content so whether you know we're fighting about the dishes or uh an upcoming family trip sometimes it all I mean if you pull back the layers there's often times an emotional need too um that maybe isn't being met um that can I mean go all the way to I want to be understood or I'm feeling misunderstood or I mean abandon and and this again the deeper levels of the emotional but often times that's what couples are are are looking for is some emotional need to be met and until you kind of take the time to you know pull back those l and look at what's happening it can stay very surface and just focused on content the dishes or whatever when it usually often couples will even forget like what they started arguing about yeah and it's that it it goes to that scorekeeping in in in in in relationships of this is I did this you know then I want you to do that or this is underlying resentments right where everything's you know a problem everything's a problem yeah yeah so that um so um going moving towards like intimacy and connection Mike we'll ask you some of those questions so how can we bring the spark back to our relationship which I know that's a big question right that's a that's a tough one but I think that that is um that's something either people have been um either you know the spark at the beginning of a relationship right is by definition it should be pretty Sparky so you that's how people get together and then over time things just have to naturally change but how can people kind of bring bring that back or keep some of that alive so as they say uh when we first meet that person we are high on drugs uh we are high on dopamine and serotonin well actually low on serotonin high on oxytocin high on nor nor norepinephrine uh and so we are we are really ready to go and they say that generally lasts about 14 months just long enough to maybe procreate and have that child there so but eventually we like with all neurochemicals all drugs we start to tolerate them we start to come back down and then all of a sudden we realize that it's not that's what not what it used to be and then we can get in this rut uh in pieces there and so I always say working with couples on the intimacy pieces number one is we really try to get anxiety out of the relationship as much as we possibly can because anxiety is the number one killer for intimacy um men with Ed often times it's over anxiety that they are struggling with that there and not so much of an organic thing and so the more we can be comfortable and move or remove anxiety from the bedroom uh that helps to spark that then I also work on just being present and just touching your partner in a relaxed way and just exploring that way rather than having an agenda and we always say that the purpose of intimacy is not for an orgasm uh it's to really be present with our partner and so once we can remove some of those things and change our Focus um intimacy can happen for all of us for all of us okay great thank you um so kind of going kind of along that along that line so like a long you know kind of a longer marriage what if we've kind of Grown Apart over the years and you know I always say people people grow constantly and either you're going to grow together or you're going to kind of grow apart and so what happens in a marriage in a relationship um when things start to to you know kind of kind of you know move apart yeah and I think that's one of the biggest challenges long-term relationships have and there's many chapters if you think about it that way there's the dating chapter that's just hot and lust filled and exciting and obsessive and just amazing um sometimes after that for many families come children and now we're in the trenches with diapers and and we don't have a lot of time and maybe we're in a place in our career where we're not making quite as much money money so are really running hard to try to pay the bills um and then all of a sudden um if you're still on that trajectory then it's Youth Sports and you're running to all that right and so uh I wrote an article I think it was back in 03 um when we had all our clinicians write an article for a local magazine and on something they specialized in and the one I wrote was on making time and it was for couples oh great because within every one of these chapters um if you're not making time there's a chance to grow apart okay okay uh because you have to have some time to play uh and and join and and bond and um so I'm I'm a fierce advocate for couples finding shared passions that they can enjoy together um and making time right in the midst of all that chaos and prioritizing it enough um and the and it's probably one of the number one things that we really work with is and I don't know if it's our culture if it's this hardworking scandian overachieving just got to go and crank um and everything else just has to be okay uh but we tend to neglect making time for our partners um and for the relationship to stay together yeah it's it's it's it's difficult in those those years those children those child rearing years is to make it to make the parents um to to have that a a priority versus the needs of the needs of the children or needs of of Aging parents or you know other other needs remember there was a time we had a couple's weekend and the apostles planned but it coincided with my youngest daughter's East select soccer tournament in town and I was supposed to be running a field and so we had this decision are we going to skip you know and so it went to the girls like go we've been at all your stuff right they're like yep can we skip this we need to get away as couples you know and they're like yeah I'll go with my girlfriend and I'll get to the so it's just being intentional that way um and and and I think it's good modeling for kids too took the words out of you know yep that's say so good modeling yeah expand on that say Dave like that's just beautiful modeling because um I mean and that's part of what I love in supporting couples is the ripple effect you know the the the benefits for the children if you have children everybody around you you know there's just so many and and I love like that conscious effort to you know and to be curious with one another I mean we change in during all those chapters as we through those chaps and to just have a genuine curiosity about I mean and I know I always think about like the unity candle you know that can be in a ceremony when you get married and it's like you become one and there's a connection that you want to have that's the secure bond that is like unique and unlike any other connection you have with anybody else um and at the same time you are two different people with different thoughts and ideas and come from different places and it's just really it can actually be quite exciting you know when we start to feel safe um and and start to alleviate some of that anxiety and have you know trust and curiosity it can be really exciting yeah and I would you know talking about you know of course each family or each couple each person in in the couple comes from a very different family culture of course of course you know my family culture my husband's family culture are very different and you know you can still make that work and so I think sometimes Mike if you could speak to that kind of bringing these two different family cultures like you can you can honor and respect that that this is where you came from but this is how what we want to do as a family and so can you speak to of course people come from from different places and that's to so to not be surprised at that but yeah this is yeah of course you guys are coming and have different you know different Norms growing up but how but you and you're choosing to be together yep and that ends up being a source of conflict right away sometimes for relationships because the way that we did it is the way that it's supposed to be done so at the holidays oh we take turns opening gifts open one at a time and then the other one's oh no we open them all at once and then we're done and and and we always think it should be that way and so part of part of um the relationship and couplehood is being able to I mean I always say for couples being able to tolerate that discomfort for growth um and so to see like with your partner when from their perspective is different from yours to be able to tolerate that discomfort that you feel about well this isn't how we did it but we're going to do it for the relationship that we're in now yeah yeah interesting aside on that too is it's it's fascinating how when we fall in love and are attracted to someone often times it's because of those differences okay and they they're complimentary in some way or they're exciting or or they're pulling us away from something we didn't like and so we Relish in that for a while and then as our relationship proceeds then we spend all this energy trying to turn our partner into us and if they don't think and do it our way right isn't it something but it's very true and we've got to try to resist that urge I love with IMO therapy too we talk about just how you know that monoculture nothing really survives that it's like you thrive in biodiversity you know and and difference and and yeah to really kind of appreciate that I love yeah I remember when my husband and I first met his family they golfed and I thought that was like oh my gosh you golf this is so cool I walked around the golf course I learned I you know to to to learn to play golf I would walk years later I I'm like I don't really like golf yeah right and that was but it was so Co like I was it was so interesting to be like oh my gosh this is just like a thing that my family never did and then that's so cool that yours did but then you kind of become into here like oh I appreciate that you do that but that's not my thing right and so I think that's is kind of like that balance to we can regress to a little bit of what we grew up with in our comfort level there and and the new relationship can pull us out of it a little little bit for a while but it's easy to slide back it's easy to slide back yeah it is um but and and I think that um what actually this is Mike Anda what you guys talked a little bit earlier on your connecting couple um thing that you humor we've all been laughing here a little bit tonight and I think how can you use humor um with with um like how we started kind of like communication and kind of disconnection if you guys want to speak to that yeah using humor because we're all using it tonight because it's such an important because I'm going to share one yeah well today for instance I'm thinking about families and and you know rituals and like things rituals that you want to adopt into your relationship and you decide together right and one of them that Michael's family had was um every morning when his father would drive away to work um family would wave at the window so we have a ritual where every day whoever leaves first drives away and we and but sometimes you know so it's an it takes an intention or whatever to do that sometimes I'm reading a book or doing you know whatever but it's like we I really am thoughtful about that and and then yeah it's every day doing that but sometimes I do something silly I'll just say sometimes I'm wearing a robe and I'll just you know I mean we live in the woods and no you know it's just him and it's like you know and and yeah laugh you know but um humor is just so important and important yeah yep yeah yeah no I mean it's that that piece of oftentimes behaviors result in the emotion versus versus the emotion leading to the behavior so I mean I was just if you ever just smile you can all of a sudden just smile and fake a smile but you can just feel that happening there and so just that laughter and just that behavior of laughing just makes you it diffuses everything yeah it does it's the fastest way well well timed well well timed humor ill timed humor maybe not so much right um and that um so kind of going to back to this like in you know individual so how do we balance the individual need um needs with the needs of our relationship this I and we piece yeah which I think is you know so moving into relationships obviously you're solo and it's pretty easy to be pretty self-focused and have your group of friends and activities and whatnot and uh but when people move towards marriage and start a family they're really taking on the responsibilities for each other and their children and and their homes and and these different types of things so so a bigger uh mass of energy obviously needs to be directed at at the relationship and so you know then I talked earlier about how much time we end up putting into work and this time so we've got family we've got kids we've got work and so how do you divide up this extra time right and so I like to think if you've got X extra time you know let's say I don't know a 20th of of your uh 100% week allowance you know try to make sure you're given at least 10 or 15% of it to your relationship um but you do need to do stuff yourself yeah and it's super healthy and so maybe those numbers are a little bit off I'd say just error a little bit more on the the family and the couple um but do make sure you've got your own passions your own friends so healthy to have a healthy group of friends because they too grew up underneath a different apple tree see things a little bit different um and that's very grounding and and an opportunity to be supportive sometimes in ways that your partner isn't able to be um and so having those other outlets too uh can be really healthy so yeah you don't want to get completely lost in the relationship it's good to have some of that grounding stuff out there um but obviously uh if you're married and you started a family or something it's probably your priority yeah it's a priority but I think that that speaks to having it's it's okay that one person should not and cannot be your everything they can't be they don't have to be your walking partner or your you know your the person that you talk to about you know food or recipes or or biking or whatever your hobbies it's okay to have like different aspects of different parts of you if you will speak to IFS different parts of you and have diff different people in your life that can kind of fulfill that because I think sometimes leaning too much just on one person can be yeah an extension of that as a couple friends there was some research that was done out there retired happy couples that were happy with their marriage and and one of the top responses was in terms of what helped that happen was a rich established set of couple friends like a wellestablished group of couple friends and and uh again CU they're trying to have a good marriage and play and have fun and and doing it in some different ways and you're like I like that you know and yeah so it's neat it brings some diversity yeah absolutely do yeah and I think to the conversations about well in our office we'll talk about we call them exits you know but just bringing some awareness um about what we're doing and again functional exits would be kind of what Dave said you know like work and you know just the responsibilities like I am exiting the relationship for these important things um some of them are maybe a little more passive or it you know for instance I cell phones you know just being on your phone like you can even go to a restaurant now and you'll see like two people on a date kind of making some assumptions that they're a couple you know and both on their phones and not that it's bad you want to connect and they're maybe connecting with their kids and you know it's important and we can do it quite mindlessly so I think it's just this like conversation about what do we know that we may be doing that is pulling us away from the relationship or what we're experiencing our partner do and and again to be able to safely just explore it bring it to awareness like is there a shift we want to make around it yeah absolutely so Mike so kind of like how long does it take for therapy to improve our relationship but you know kind of a bigger question to that is can you kind of go through and sure Pro probably you all have you know different processes with how you deal with couples but can you take us through just like how like a couple calls up and wants to see you just take us through like just some basic steps because I think therapy um most people haven't been to therapy most people haven't been to Coupes therapy and it's kind of a it's a it's kind of a scary space for you individually and then to kind of take that step as a couple you know that could be a really scary step and so if you can kind of just talk through a little bit about what that would look like so maybe to kind of you know decrease some potential fear out there so couples often come because one person has brought the couple in okay um and they often come to say we have communication problems and that kind of is how it start we just can't communicate and um I always say that the problem isn't that you can't communicate it's that you communicate too well um which is that you fully know what's safe to say with your partner and what's not to sa to say around your partner and so you know exactly how to make that dance and and so the problem isn't that you don't know how to communicate it's that you communicate too well uh knowing each other too well and what their triggers are and that you're not actually being able to address those in those pieces there um I think another big piece right away is to establish that it's a safe space um the other piece too is most couples when they come in they're really expecting you know it's this person who needs to change um you know they're they're the fault um and really there's so many times when when they're there they turn to you to litigate their fight that they just had and who had the better memory um and so forth there and so I always pull away and say that you know again um we're this you know we're not here to litigate um as Terry reel says do you want to be right or do you want to be married uh and so part of it is look we're not trying to um plead our case before a judge who will say that oh you are the right one here and you are in the wrong here um it's not about that at all it's about finding where we're all right um okay yeah go ahead interestingly I just want to say research has shown consistently for a while that couples Will Wait 6 years on average Beyond when they actually could use the help we'll wait six years to seek therapy and help Beyond when it could be really helpful so I just think that's astonishing and we see that you know in our offices and that you don't have to have a lot of Brokenness in order to to get support I mean again it's like having children and all that you don't necessarily get a manual the one you were raised with and and then maybe if you've done your own um you know your own reading and research or whatever but it it's yeah and about the space too I love that that it's you know we're looking at the space it's not changing one person or the other you probably will change when you do this work but um it's very non-pathologizing and just healthy yeah um so uh you know for sometimes when people come um to uh to to coup's therapy there is some sort of trust and forgiveness piece of that element of that so um you know I think just if you can speak to like how do you rebuild trust after after um a betrayal and you know and and that it's heavy lifting um you know whether it's an affair or other dishonesties or things that we're hitting a gambling problem or drinking right it's it's some heavy lifting and so out of the gate there's got to be transparency um there's got to be honesty there's got to be taking ownership of it uh there's got to be healing there's got to be patience um because the person whose trust was betay it's going to take a little while uh and and and the person who did the Betrayal is going to have to kind of um do the work they're going to have to try to prove that they can get moving in a different direction um and and try to make it feel safer for their partner to try to start trusting again to make the decision it's it's kind of a decision it's going to be I'm going to take the risk of trusting again so the person who is betrayed it's a decision on that person's part do you feel like and is it both people's decision yeah but I think I think when we think of trusting um it doesn't necessarily just organically poof come into play it's I'm going to take the risk of trusting okay okay and and it's hard to do and it's scary because there's no guarantees yeah I've been married 30 years and and knock on wood I'll be married longer but there's there's no guarantees and so taking the risk of trusting and trying to work through transparency and um taking ownership and trying to just work through it maturely relationally and patiently because the partner that was hurt they're going to have waves of hurt that are going to come out for the next months and to try to be patient there apologize take ownership here's what I'm doing and not just say I already apologize for that you know it's so I think that's a real important part of it too okay so there is um so kind of moving there is a a way to move past that resentment and and have healing yeah I would say probably 70 to 80% of couples that have had affairs if get in and get to work and that's what really increases the likelihood of of things moving forward uh can recover after something like that okay great good to know um so um just kind of some uh just kind of a bigger question um going back to that communication feeling unheard and misunderstood in a relationship can you speak to that Dina feeling unur and misunderstood yeah and I think it's what do we say like disconnection is growth trying to happen so even when you are feeling unheard I consider that data like what is being activated in you what energy is not feeling seen um so a to be able to go inside yourself and see what is coming up for me um around this conversation we're having the behavior that was done whatever it is and then also the other partner to have curiosity about about what what they're you know you're experiencing when we were talking about forgiveness and I I look at forgiveness and repairs like repair would be that to genuinely have a lot of curiosity about like how this has impacted you um okay thank yous yeah thank you very much I want to thank our panelists David plute Dina clayball and Michael claya please join Dr Mary Owen next week for a program on ear nose and throat problems and sleep apnea thank you for watching good night e e e e e e